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Oathbringer by Brandon Sanderson: Chapters 13-15

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Oathbringer by Brandon Sanderson: Chapters 13-15

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Oathbringer by Brandon Sanderson: Chapters 13-15

Book 3 in the Stormlight Archive. Humanity faces a new Desolation with the return of the Voidbringers, a foe with numbers as great as their thirst for vengeance.

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Published on September 26, 2017

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Oathbringer by Brandon Sanderson

Start reading Oathbringer, the new volume of Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive epic, right now. For free!

Tor.com is serializing the much-awaited third volume in the Stormlight Archive series every Tuesday until the novel’s November 14, 2017 release date.

Every installment is collected here in the Oathbringer index.

Need a refresher on the Stormlight Archive before beginning Oathbringer? Here’s a summary of what happened in Book 1: The Way of Kings and Book 2: Words of Radiance.

Spoiler warning: Comments will contain spoilers for previous Stormlight books, other works that take place in Sanderson’s cosmere (Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, etc.), and the available chapters of Oathbringer, along with speculation regarding the chapters yet to come.

 

Chapter 13
Chaperone

I ask only that you read or listen to these words.

—From Oathbringer, preface

 

Shallan breathed out Stormlight and stepped through it, feeling it envelop her, transform her.

She’d been moved, upon request, to Sebarial’s section of Urithiru, in part because he’d promised her a room with a balcony. Fresh air and a view of the mountain peaks. If she couldn’t be completely free of this building’s shadowed depths, then at least she could have a home on the borders.

She pulled at her hair, pleased to see it had turned black. She had become Veil, a disguise she’d been working on for some time.

Shallan held up hands that were callused and worked—even the safehand. Not that Veil was unfeminine. She kept her nails filed, and liked to dress nicely, keep her hair brushed. She simply didn’t have time for frivolities. A good sturdy coat and trousers suited Veil better than a flowing havah. And she had no time for an extended sleeve covering her safehand. She’d wear a glove, thank you very much.

At the moment she was dressed in her nightgown; she’d change later, once she was ready to sneak out into Urithiru’s halls. She needed some practice first. Though she felt bad about the use of Stormlight when everyone else was scrimping, Dalinar had told her to train with her powers.

She strode through her chamber, adopting Veil’s gait—confident and sturdy, never prim. You couldn’t balance a book on Veil’s head as she walked, but she’d happily balance one on your face after she knocked you unconscious.

She circled the room several times, crossing the patch of evening light from the window. Her room was ornamented by bright circular patterns of strata on the walls. The stone was smooth to the touch, and a knife couldn’t scratch it.

There wasn’t much furniture, though Shallan was hopeful that the latest scavenging expeditions to the warcamps would return with something she could appropriate from Sebarial. For now she did what she could with some blankets, a single stool, and—blessedly—a hand mirror. She’d hung it on the wall, tied to a stone knob that she assumed was for hanging pictures.

She checked her face in the mirror. She wanted to get to the point where she could become Veil at a moment’s notice, without needing to review sketches. She prodded at her features, but of course as the more angular nose and pronounced forehead were a result of Lightweaving, she couldn’t feel them.

When she frowned, Veil’s face mimicked the motion perfectly. “Something to drink, please,” she said. No, rougher. “Drink. Now.” Too strong?

“Mmm,” Pattern said. “The voice becomes a good lie.”

“Thank you. I’ve been working on sounds.” Veil’s voice was deeper than Shallan’s, rougher. She’d started to wonder, how far could she go in changing how things sounded?

For now, she wasn’t sure she’d gotten the lips right in the illusion. She sauntered over to her art supplies and flipped open her sketchbook, looking for renditions of Veil she’d drawn instead of going to dinner with Sebarial and Palona.

The first page of the sketchbook was of the corridor with the twisting strata she’d passed through the other day: lines of madness curling toward darkness. She flipped to the next, a picture of one of the tower’s budding markets. Thousands of merchants, washwomen, prostitutes, innkeepers, and craftsmen of all varieties were setting up in Urithiru. Shallan knew well how many—she’d been the one to bring them all through the Oathgate.

In her sketch, the black upper reaches of the large market cavern loomed over tiny figures scurrying between tents, holding fragile lights. The next was another tunnel into darkness. And the next. Then a room where the strata coiled about one another in a mesmerizing manner. She hadn’t realized she’d done so many. She flipped twenty pages before she found her sketches of Veil.

Yes, the lips were right. The build was wrong, however. Veil had a lean strength, and that wasn’t coming through in the nightgown. It looked too much like Shallan’s figure beneath.

Someone knocked on the wooden plate hung outside her rooms. She had just a cloth draping the doorway right now. Many of the tower’s doors had warped over the years; hers had been ripped out, and she was still waiting on a replacement.

The one knocking would be Palona, who had once again noticed that Shallan had skipped dinner. Shallan sucked in a breath, destroying the image of Veil, recovering some of the Stormlight from her Lightweaving. “Come,” she said. Honestly, it didn’t seem to matter to Palona that Shallan was a storming Knight Radiant now, she’d still mother her all the—

Adolin stepped in, carrying a large plate of food in one hand, some books under the other arm. He saw her and stumbled, nearly dropping it all.

Shallan froze, then yelped and tucked her bare safehand behind her back. Adolin didn’t even have the decency to blush at finding her practically naked. He balanced the food in his hand, recovering from his stumble, and then grinned.

“Out!” Shallan said, waving her freehand at him. “Out, out, out!”

He backed away awkwardly, through the draped cloth over the doorway. Stormfather! Shallan’s blush was probably so bright they could have used her as a signal to send the army to war. She pulled on a glove, then wrapped that in a safepouch, then threw on the blue dress she had draped over the back of her chair and did up the sleeve. She didn’t have the presence of mind to pull on her bodice vest first, not that she really needed one anyway. She kicked it under a blanket instead.

“In my defense,” Adolin said from outside, “you did invite me in.”

“I thought you were Palona!” Shallan said, doing up the buttons on the side of her dress—which proved difficult, with three layers covering her safehand.

“You know, you could check to see who is at your door.”

“Don’t make this my fault,” Shallan said. “You’re the one slipping into young ladies’ bedrooms practically unannounced.”

“I knocked!”

“The knock was feminine.”

“It was… Shallan!”

“Did you knock with one hand or two?”

“I’m carrying a storming platter of food—for you, by the way. Of course the knock was one-handed. And seriously, who knocks with two?”

“It was quite feminine, then. I’d have thought that imitating a woman to catch a glimpse of a young lady in her undergarments was beneath you, Adolin Kholin.”

“Oh, for Damnation’s sake, Shallan. Can I come in now? And just so we’re clear, I’m a man and your betrothed, my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine, I have a birthmark on the back of my left thigh, and I had crab curry for breakfast. Anything else you need to know?”

She poked her head out, pulling the cloth tight around her neck. “Back of your left thigh, eh? What’s a girl got to do to sneak a glimpse of that?”

“Knock like a man, apparently.”

She gave him a grin. “Just a sec. This dress is being a pain.” She ducked back into the room.

“Yes, yes. Take your time. I’m not standing out here holding a heavy platter of food, smelling it after having skipped dinner so I could dine with you.”

“It’s good for you,” Shallan said. “Builds strength, or something. Isn’t that the sort of thing you do? Strangle rocks, stand on your head, throw boulders around.”

“Yes, I have quite my share of murdered rocks stuffed under my bed.” Shallan grabbed her dress with her teeth at the neck to pull it tight, helping with the buttons. Maybe.

“What is it with women and their undergarments anyway?” Adolin said, the platter clinking as some of the plates slid against one another. “I mean, that shift covers basically the same parts as a formal dress.”

“It’s the decency of it,” Shallan said around a mouthful of fabric. “Besides, certain things have a tendency to poke out through a shift.”

“Still seems arbitrary to me.”

“Oh, and men aren’t arbitrary about clothing? A uniform is basically the same as any other coat, right? Besides, aren’t you the one who spends his afternoons searching through fashion folios?”

He chuckled and started a reply, but Shallan, finally dressed, swept back the sheet on her doorway. Adolin stood up from leaning against the wall of the corridor and took her in—frazzled hair, dress that she had missed two buttons on, cheeks flushed. Then he grinned a dopey grin.

Ash’s eyes… he actually thought she was pretty. This wonderful, princely man actually liked being with her. She’d traveled to the ancient city of the Knights Radiant, but compared to Adolin’s affection, all the sights of Urithiru were dun spheres.

He liked her. And he brought her food.

Do not find a way to screw this up, Shallan thought to herself as she took the books from under his arm. She stepped aside, letting him enter and set the platter on the floor. “Palona said you hadn’t eaten,” he said, “and then she found out I’d skipped dinner. So, uh…”

“So she sent you with a lot,” Shallan said, inspecting the platter piled high with dishes, flatbreads, and shellfood.

“Yeah,” Adolin said, standing and scratching at his head. “I think it’s a Herdazian thing.”

Shallan hadn’t realized how hungry she was. She’d been intending to get something at one of the taverns later tonight while prowling about wearing Veil’s face. Those taverns had set up in the main market, despite Navani’s attempts to send them elsewhere, and Sebarial’s merchants had quite the stock to sell.

Now that this was all before her… well, she didn’t worry much about decorum as she settled down on the ground and started to spoon herself up a thin, watery curry with vegetables.

Adolin remained standing. He did look sharp in that blue uniform,

though admittedly she’d never really seen him in anything else. Birthmark on the thigh, eh…

“You’ll have to sit on the ground,” Shallan said. “No chairs yet.” “I just realized,” he said, “this is your bedroom.”

“And my drawing room, and my sitting room, and my dining room, and my ‘Adolin says obvious things’ room. It’s quite versatile, this room— singular—of mine. Why?”

“I’m just wondering if it’s proper,” he said, then actually blushed— which was adorable. “For us to be in here alone.”

Now you’re worried about propriety?”

“Well, I did recently get lectured about it.”

“That wasn’t a lecture,” Shallan said, taking a bite of food. The succulent tastes overwhelmed her mouth, bringing on that delightful sharp pain and mixing of flavor that you only got from the first bite of something sweet. She closed her eyes and smiled, savoring it.

“So… not a lecture?” Adolin said. “Was there to be more to that quip?”

“Sorry,” she said, opening her eyes. “It wasn’t a lecture, it was a creative application of my tongue to keep you distracted.” Looking at his lips, she could think of some other creative applications for her tongue.…

Right. She took a deep breath.

“It would be inappropriate,” Shallan said, “if we were alone. Fortunately, we are not.”

“Your ego doesn’t count as a separate individual, Shallan.”

“Ha! Wait. You think I have an ego?”

“It just sounded good—I don’t mean… Not that… Why are you grinning?”

“Sorry,” Shallan said, making two fists before herself and shivering in glee. She’d spent so long feeling timid, it was so satisfying to hear a reference to her confidence. It was working! Jasnah’s teaching about practicing and acting like she was in control. It was working.

Well, except for that whole part about having to admit to herself that she’d killed her mother. As soon as she thought of it, she instinctively tried to shove the memory away, but it wouldn’t budge. She’d spoken it to Pattern as a truth—which were the odd Ideals of the Lightweavers.

It was stuck in her mind, and every time she thought about it, the gaping wound flared up with pain again. Shallan had killed her mother. Her father had covered it up, pretended he’d murdered his wife, and the event had destroyed his life—driving him to anger and destruction.

Until eventually Shallan had killed him too.

“Shallan?” Adolin asked. “Are you well?”

No.

“Sure. Fine. Anyway, we aren’t alone. Pattern, come here please.” She held out her hand, palm up.

He reluctantly moved down from the wall where he’d been watching. As always, he made a ripple in whatever he crossed, be it cloth or stone—like there was something under the surface. His complex, fluctuating pattern of lines was always changing, melding, vaguely circular but with surprising tangents.

He crossed up her dress and onto her hand, then split out from beneath her skin and rose into the air, expanding fully into three dimensions. He hovered there, a black, eye-bending network of shifting lines—some patterns shrinking while others expanded, rippling across his surface like a field of moving grass.

She would not hate him. She could hate the sword she’d used to kill her mother, but not him. She managed to push aside the pain for now—not forgetting it, but hopefully not letting it spoil her time with Adolin.

“Prince Adolin,” Shallan said, “I believe you’ve heard my spren’s voice before. Let me introduce you formally. This is Pattern.”

Adolin knelt, reverent, and stared at the mesmerizing geometries. Shallan didn’t blame him; she’d lost herself more than once in that network of lines and shapes that almost seemed to repeat, but never quite did.

“Your spren,” Adolin said. “A Shallanspren.” Pattern sniffed in annoyance at that.

“He’s called a Cryptic,” she said. “Every order of Radiant bonds a different variety of spren, and that bond lets me do what I do.”

“Craft illusions,” Adolin said softly. “Like that one with the map the other day.”

Shallan smiled and—realizing she had just a smidge of Stormlight left from her illusion earlier—was unable to resist showing off. She raised her sleeved safehand and breathed out, sending a shimmering patch of Stormlight above the blue cloth. It formed into a small image of Adolin from her sketches of him in his Shardplate. This one remained frozen, Shardblade on his shoulder, faceplate up—like a little doll.

“This is an incredible talent, Shallan,” Adolin said, poking at the version of himself—which fuzzed, offering no resistance. He paused, then poked at Pattern, who shied back. “Why do you insist on hiding this, pretending that you’re a different order than you are?”

“Well,” she said, thinking fast and closing her hand, dismissing the image of Adolin. “I just think it might give us an edge. Sometimes secrets are important.”

Adolin nodded slowly. “Yeah. Yeah, they are.”

“Anyway,” Shallan said. “Pattern, you’re to be our chaperone tonight.”

“What,” Pattern said with a hum, “is a chaperone?”

“That is someone who watches two young people when they are together, to make certain they don’t do anything inappropriate.”

“Inappropriate?” Pattern said. “Such as… dividing by zero?”

“What?” Shallan asked, looking to Adolin, who shrugged. “Look, just keep an eye on us. It will be all right.”

Pattern hummed, melting down into his two-dimensional form and taking up residence on the side of a bowl. He seemed content there, like a cremling snuggled into its crack.

Unable to wait any longer, Shallan dug into her meal. Adolin settled down across from her and attacked his own food. For a time, Shallan ignored her pain and savored the moment—good food, good company, the setting sun casting ruby and topaz light across the mountains and into the room. She felt like drawing this scene, but knew it was the type of moment she couldn’t capture on a page. It wasn’t about content or composition, but the pleasure of living.

The trick to happiness wasn’t in freezing every momentary pleasure and clinging to each one, but in ensuring one’s life would produce many future moments to anticipate.

Adolin—after finishing an entire plate of stranna haspers steamed in the shell—picked out a few chunks of pork from a creamy red curry, then put them on a plate and handed them in her direction. “Wanna try a bite?”

Shallan made a gagging noise.

“Come on,” he said, wagging the plate. “It’s delicious.”

“It would burn my lips off, Adolin Kholin,” Shallan said. “Don’t think I didn’t notice you picking the absolute spiciest concoction Palona sent. Men’s food is dreadful. How can you taste anything beneath all that spice?”

“Keeps it from being bland,” Adolin said, stabbing one of the chunks and popping it in his mouth. “There’s nobody here but us. You can try it.”

She eyed it, remembering the times as a child when she’d sneaked tastes of men’s food—though not this specific dish.

Pattern buzzed. “Is this the inappropriate thing I’m supposed to stop you from doing?”

“No,” Shallan said, and Pattern settled back down. Perhaps a chaperone, she thought, who believes basically everything I tell him isn’t going to be the most effective.

Still, with a sigh, she grabbed a chunk of the pork in some flatbread.

She had left Jah Keved hunting new experiences, after all.

She tried a bite, and was given immediate reason to regret her decisions in life.

Eyes brimming with tears, she scrambled for the cup of water Adolin, insufferably, had picked up to hand toward her. She gulped that down, though it didn’t seem to do anything. She followed it by wiping her tongue with a napkin—in the most feminine way possible, of course.

“I hate you,” she said, drinking his water next. Adolin chuckled.

“Oh!” Pattern said suddenly, bursting up from the bowl to hover in the air. “You were talking about mating! I’m to make sure you don’t accidentally mate, as mating is forbidden by human society until you have first performed appropriate rituals! Yes, yes. Mmmm. Dictates of custom require following certain patterns before you copulate. I’ve been studying this!”

“Oh, Stormfather,” Shallan said, covering her eyes with her freehand. A few shamespren even peeked in for a glimpse before vanishing. Twice in one week.

“Very well, you two,” Pattern said. “No mating. NO MATING.” He hummed to himself, as if pleased, then sank down onto a plate.

“Well, that was humiliating,” Shallan said. “Can we maybe talk about those books you brought? Or ancient Vorin theology, or strategies for counting grains of sand? Anything other than what just happened? Please?”

Adolin chuckled, then reached for a slim notebook that was on top of the pile. “May Aladar sent teams to question Vedekar Perel’s family and friends. They discovered where he was before he died, who last saw him, and wrote down anything suspicious. I thought we could read the report.”

“And the rest of the books?”

“You seemed lost when Father asked you about Makabaki politics,” Adolin said, pouring some wine, merely a soft yellow. “So I asked around, and it seems that some of the ardents hauled their entire libraries out here. I was able to get a servant to locate you a few books I’d enjoyed on the Makabaki.”

“Books?” Shallan said. “You?”

“I don’t spend all my time hitting people with swords, Shallan,” Adolin said. “Jasnah and Aunt Navani made very certain that my youth was filled with interminable periods spent listening to ardents lecture me on politics and trade. Some of it stuck in my brain, against my natural inclinations. Those three books are the best of the ones I remember having read to me, though the last one is an updated version. I thought it might help.”

“That’s thoughtful,” she said. “Really, Adolin. Thank you.”

“I figured, you know, if we’re going to move forward with the betrothal…”

“Why wouldn’t we?” Shallan said, suddenly panicked.

“I don’t know. You’re a Radiant, Shallan. Some kind of half-divine being from mythology. And all along I was thinking we were giving you a favorable match.” He stood up and started pacing. “Damnation. I didn’t mean to say it like that. I’m sorry. I just… I keep worrying that I’m going to screw this up somehow.”

“You worry you’re going to screw it up?” Shallan said, feeling a warmth inside that wasn’t completely due to the wine.

“I’m not good with relationships, Shallan.”

“Is there anyone who actually is? I mean, is there really someone out there who looks at relationships and thinks, ‘You know what, I’ve got this’? Personally, I rather think we’re all collectively idiots about it.”

“It’s worse for me.”

“Adolin, dear, the last man I had a romantic interest in was not only an ardent—forbidden to court me in the first place—but also turned out to be an assassin who was merely trying to obtain my favor so he could get close to Jasnah. I think you overestimate everyone else’s capability in this regard.”

He stopped pacing. “An assassin.”

“Seriously,” Shallan said. “He almost killed me with a loaf of poisoned bread.”

“Wow. I have to hear this story.”

“Fortunately, I just told it to you. His name was Kabsal, and he was so incredibly sweet to me that I can almost forgive him for trying to kill me.”

Adolin grinned. “Well, it’s nice to hear that I don’t have a high bar to jump—all I have to do is not poison you. Though you shouldn’t be telling me about past lovers. You’ll make me jealous.”

“Please,” Shallan said, dipping her bread in some leftover sweet curry. Her tongue still hadn’t recovered. “You’ve courted, like, half the warcamps.”

“It’s not that bad.”

“Isn’t it? From what I hear, I’d have to go to Herdaz to find an eligible woman you haven’t pursued.” She held out her hand to him, to help her to her feet.

“Are you mocking my failings?”

“No, I’m lauding them,” she said, standing up beside him. “You see, Adolin dear, if you hadn’t wrecked all those other relationships, you wouldn’t be here. With me.” She pulled close. “And so, in reality, you’re the greatest at relationships there ever was. You ruined only the wrong ones, you see.”

He leaned down. His breath smelled of spices, his uniform of the crisp, clean starch Dalinar required. His lips touched hers, and her heart fluttered. So warm.

“No mating!”

She started, pulling out of the kiss to find Pattern hovering beside them, pulsing quickly through shapes.

Adolin bellowed a laugh, and Shallan couldn’t help joining in at the ridiculousness of it. She stepped back from him, but kept hold on his hand. “Neither of us is going to mess this up,” she said to him, squeezing his hand. “Despite what might at times seem like our best efforts otherwise.”

“Promise?” he asked.

“I promise. Let’s look at this notebook of yours and see what it says about our murderer.”

 


 

Chapter 14
Squires Can’t Capture

In this record, I hold nothing back. I will try not to shy away from difficult topics, or paint myself in a dishonestly heroic light.

—From Oathbringer, preface

 

Kaladin crept through the rains, sidling in a wet uniform across the rocks until he was able to peek through the trees at the Voidbringers. Monstrous terrors from the mythological past, enemies of all that was right and good. Destroyers who had laid waste to civilization countless times.

They were playing cards.

What in Damnation’s depths? Kaladin thought. The Voidbringers had posted a single guard, but the creature had simply been sitting on a tree stump, easy to avoid. A decoy, Kaladin had assumed, figuring he would find the true guard watching from the heights of the trees.

If there was a hidden guard though, Kaladin had missed spotting them— and they’d missed Kaladin in equal measure. The dim light served him well, as he was able to settle between some bushes right at the edge of the Voidbringer camp. Between trees they had stretched tarps, which leaked horribly. In one place they’d made a proper tent, fully enclosed with walls— and he couldn’t see what was inside.

There wasn’t enough shelter, so many sat out in the rain. Kaladin spent a torturous few minutes expecting to be spotted. All they had to do was notice that these bushes had drawn in their leaves at his touch.

Nobody looked, fortunately. The leaves timidly peeked back out, obscuring him. Syl landed on his arm, hands on her hips as she surveyed the Voidbringers. One of them had a set of wooden Herdazian cards, and he sat at the edge of the camp—directly before Kaladin—using a flat surface of stone as a table. A female sat opposite him.

They looked different from what he expected. For one thing, their skin was a diff rent shade—many parshmen here in Alethkar had marbled white and red skin, rather than the deep red on black like Rlain from Bridge Four. They didn’t wear warform, though neither did they wear some terrible, powerful form. Though they were squat and bulky, their only carapace ran along the sides of their forearms and jutted out at their temples, leaving them with full heads of hair.

They still wore their simple slave smocks, tied at the waists with strings. No red eyes. Did that change, perhaps, like his own eyes?

The male—distinguished by a dark red beard, the hairs each unnaturally thick—finally placed a card on the rock next to several others.

“Can you do that?” the female asked.

“I think so.”

“You said squires can’t capture.”

“Unless another card of mine is touching yours,” the male said. He scratched at his beard. “I think?”

Kaladin felt cold, like the rainwater was seeping in through his skin, penetrating all the way to his blood and washing through him. They spoke like Alethi. Not a hint of an accent. With his eyes closed, he wouldn’t have been able to tell these voices from those of common darkeyed villagers from Hearthstone, save for the fact that the female had a deeper voice than most human women.

“So…” the female said. “You’re saying you don’t know how to play the game after all.”

The male began gathering up the cards. “I should know, Khen. How many times did I watch them play? Standing there with my tray of drinks. I should be an expert at this, shouldn’t I?”

“Apparently not.”

The female stood and walked over to another group, who were trying to build a fire under a tarp without much success. It took a special kind of luck to be able to get flames going outside during the Weeping. Kaladin, like most in the military, had learned to live with the constant dampness.

They had the stolen sacks of grain—Kaladin could see them piled underneath one of the tarps. The grain had swollen, splitting several of the sacks. Several were eating soggy handfuls, since they had no bowls.

Kaladin wished he didn’t immediately taste the mushy, awful stuff in his own mouth. He’d been given unspiced, boiled tallew on many occasions. Often he’d considered it a blessing.

The male who’d been speaking continued to sit on his rock, holding up a wooden card. They were a lacquered set, durable. Kaladin had occasionally seen their like in the military. Men would save for months to get a set like this, that wouldn’t warp in the rain.

The parshman looked so forlorn, staring down at his card, shoulders slumped.

“This is wrong,” Kaladin whispered to Syl. “We’ve been so wrong.…” Where were the destroyers? What had happened to the beasts with the red eyes that had tried to crush Dalinar’s army? The terrible, haunting figures that Bridge Four had described to him?

We thought we understood what was going to happen, Kaladin thought. I was so sure.…

“Alarm!” a sudden, shrill voice called. “Alarm! You fools!”

Something zipped through the air, a glowing yellow ribbon, a streak of light in the dim afternoon shade.

“He’s there,” the shrill voice said. “You’re being watched! Beneath those shrubs!”

Kaladin burst up through the underbrush, ready to suck in Stormlight and be away. Though fewer towns had any now, as it was running out again, he had a little left.

The parshmen seized cudgels made from branches or the handles of brooms. They bunched together and held the sticks like frightened villagers, no stance, no control.

Kaladin hesitated. I could take them all in a fight even without Stormlight.

He’d seen men hold weapons like that many times before. Most recently, he’d seen it inside the chasms, when training the bridgemen.

These were no warriors.

Syl flitted up to him, prepared to become a Blade. “No,” Kaladin whispered to her. Then he held his hands to the sides, speaking more loudly. “I surrender.”

 


 

Chapter 15
Brightness Radiant

I will express only direct, even brutal, truth. You must know what I have done, and what those actions cost me.

—From Oathbringer, preface

 

Brightlord Perel’s body was found in the same area as Sadeas’s,” Shallan said, pacing back and forth in her room as she flipped through pages of the report. “That can’t be a coincidence. This tower is far too big. So we know where the murderer is prowling.”

“Yeah, I suppose,” Adolin said. He lounged with his back against the wall, coat unbuttoned while tossing a small leather ball filled with dried grain into the air and catching it again. “I just think the murders could have been done by two different people.”

“Same exact method of murder,” Shallan said. “Body positioned the same way.”

“Nothing else connecting them,” Adolin said. “Sadeas was slime, widely hated, and usually accompanied by guards. Perel was quiet, well-liked, and known for his administrative prowess. He was less a soldier than a manager.”

The sun had fully set by now, and they’d set out spheres on the floor for light. The remnants of their meal had been carted away by a servant, and Pattern hummed happily on the wall near Adolin’s head. Adolin glanced at him occasionally, looking uncomfortable, which she fully understood. She’d grown used to Pattern, but his lines were strange.

Wait until Adolin sees a Cryptic in Shadesmar form, she thought, with a full body but twisting shapes for his head.

Adolin tossed the little stitched ball into the air and caught it with his right hand—the one that Renarin, amazingly, had healed. She wasn’t the only one practicing with her powers. She was especially glad someone else had a Shardblade now. When the highstorms returned, and they began working the Oathgate in earnest, she’d have help.

“These reports,” Shallan said, tapping the notebook against her hand, “are both informative and useless. Nothing connects Perel and Sadeas save their both being lighteyes—that and the part of the tower they were in. Perhaps mere opportunity drove the killer’s choice of victims.”

“You’re saying someone happened to kill a highprince,” Adolin said, “by accident? Like… a back-alley murder outside a pub?”

“Maybe. Brightness Aladar suggests in here that your father lay down some rules on people moving alone through empty parts of the tower.”

“I still think there might be two murderers,” Adolin said. “You know… like someone saw Sadeas dead, and figured they could get away with killing someone else, blaming it on the first fellow.”

Oh, Adolin, Shallan thought. He’d arrived at a theory he liked, and now wouldn’t let it go. It was a common mistake warned of in her scientific books.

Adolin did have one point—a highprince being murdered was unlikely to be random chance. There were no signs of Sadeas’s Shardblade, Oathbringer, being used by anyone, not even a rumor of it.

Maybe the second death is a kind of decoy? Shallan thought, riffling through the report again. An attempt to make it seem like random attacks? No, that was too convoluted—and she had no more evidence for it than Adolin had for his theory.

That did leave her thinking. Maybe everyone was paying attention to these two deaths because they’d happened to important lighteyes. Could there be other deaths they hadn’t noticed because they’d happened to less prominent individuals? If a beggar had been found in Adolin’s proverbial back alley behind a pub, would anyone have remarked upon it—even if he’d been stabbed through the eye?

I need to get out there among them and see what I can find. She opened her mouth to tell him she should probably turn in, but he was already standing, stretching.

“I think we’ve done what we can with that,” he said, nodding toward the report. “At least for tonight.”

“Yeah,” Shallan said, feigning a yawn. “Probably.”

“So…” Adolin said, then took a deep breath. “There’s… something else.”

Shallan frowned. Something else? Why did he suddenly look like he was preparing to do something difficult?

He’s going to break off our betrothal! a part of her mind thought, though she pounced on that emotion and shoved it back behind the curtains where it belonged.

“Okay, this isn’t easy,” Adolin said. “I don’t want to offend, Shallan. But… you know how I had you eat that man’s food?”

“Um, yes. If my tongue is particularly spicy in the coming days, I blame you.”

“Shallan, there’s something similar that we need to talk about. Something about you we can’t just ignore.”

“I…” I killed my parents. I stabbed my mother through the chest and I strangled my father while singing to him.

“You,” Adolin said, “have a Shardblade.”

I didn’t want to kill her. I had to. I had to.

Adolin grabbed her by the shoulders and she started, focusing on him. He was… grinning?

“You have a Shardblade, Shallan! A new one. That’s incredible. I dreamed for years of earning my Blade! So many men spend their lives with that very dream and never see it fulfilled. And here you have one!”

“And that’s a good thing, right?” she said, held in his grip with arms pulled tight against her body.

“Of course it is!” Adolin said, letting go of her. “But, I mean, you’re a woman.”

“Was it the makeup that tipped you off, or the dress? Oh, it was the breasts, wasn’t it? Always giving us away.”

“Shallan, this is serious.”

“I know,” she said, calming her nerves. “Yes, Pattern can become a Shardblade, Adolin. I don’t see what this has to do with anything. I can’t give it away.… Stormfather. You want to teach me how to use it, don’t you?”

He grinned. “You said that Jasnah was a Radiant too. Women, gaining Shardblades. It’s weird, but it’s not like we can ignore it. What about Plate? Do you have that hidden somewhere too?”

“Not that I know of,” she said. Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold, her muscles tense. She fought against the sensation. “I don’t know where Plate comes from.”

“I know it’s not feminine, but who cares? You’ve got a sword; you should know how to use it, and custom can go to Damnation. There, I said it.” He took a deep breath. “I mean, the bridgeboy can have one, and he’s darkeyed. Well, he was. Anyway, it’s not so different from that.”

Thank you, Shallan thought, for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants. But she held her tongue. This was obviously an important moment for Adolin, and he was trying to be broad-minded.

But… thinking of what she’d done pained her. Holding the weapon would be worse. So much worse.

She wanted to hide. But she couldn’t. This truth refused to budge from her mind. Could she explain? “So, you’re right, but—”

“Great!” Adolin said. “Great. I brought the Blade guards so we won’t hurt each other. I stashed them back at the guard post. I’ll go fetch them.”

He was out the door a moment later. Shallan stood with her hand stretched toward him, objections dying on her lips. She curled her fingers up and brought her hand to her breast, her heart thundering within.

“Mmmm,” Pattern said. “This is good. This needs to be done.”

Shallan scrambled through the room to the small mirror she’d hung from the wall. She stared at herself, eyes wide, hair an utter mess. She’d started breathing in sharp, quick gasps. “I can’t—” she said. “I can’t be this person, Pattern. I can’t just wield the sword. Some brilliant knight on a tower, pretending she should be followed.”

Pattern hummed softly a tone she’d come to recognize as confusion. The bewilderment of one species trying to comprehend the mind of another.

Sweat trickled down Shallan’s face, running beside her eye as she stared at herself. What did she expect to see? The thought of breaking down in front of Adolin heightened her tension. Her every muscle grew taut, and the corners of her vision started to darken. She could see only before herself, and she wanted to run, go somewhere. Be away.

No. No, just be someone else.

Hands shaking, she scrambled over and dug out her drawing pad. She ripped pages, flinging them out of the way to reach an empty one, then seized her charcoal pencil.

Pattern moved over to her, a floating ball of shifting lines, buzzing in concern. “Shallan? Please. What is wrong?”

I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace. Shallan can flee and leave someone in her place.

“It’s because you hate me,” Pattern said softly. “I can die, Shallan. I can go. They will send you another to bond.”

A high-pitched whine started to rise in the room, one Shallan didn’t immediately recognize as coming from the back of her own throat. Pattern’s words were like knives to her side. No, please. Just draw.

Veil. Veil would be fine holding a sword. She didn’t have Shallan’s broken soul, and hadn’t killed her parents. She’d be able to do this.

No. No, what would Adolin do if he returned and found a completely different woman in the room? He couldn’t know of Veil. The lines she sketched, ragged and unrefined from the shaking pencil, quickly took the shape of her own face. But hair in a bun. A poised woman, not as flighty as Shallan, not as unintentionally silly.

A woman who hadn’t been sheltered. A woman hard enough, strong enough, to wield this sword. A woman like… like Jasnah.

Yes, Jasnah’s subtle smile, composure, and self-confidence. Shallan outlined her own face with these ideals, creating a harder version of it. Could… could she be this woman?

I have to be, Shallan thought, drawing in Stormlight from her satchel, then breathing it out in a puff around her. She stood up as the change took hold. Her heartbeat slowed, and she wiped the sweat from her brow, then calmly undid her safehand sleeve, tossed aside the foolish extra pouch she’d tied around her hand inside, then rolled the sleeve back to expose her still-gloved hand.

Good enough. Adolin couldn’t possibly expect her to put on sparring clothing. She pulled her hair back into a bun and fixed it in place with hairspikes from her satchel.

When Adolin returned to the room a moment later, he found a poised, calm woman who wasn’t quite Shallan Davar. Brightness Radiant is her name, she thought. She will go only by title.

Adolin carried two long, thin pieces of metal that somehow could meld to the front of Shardblades and make them less dangerous for use in sparring. Radiant inspected them with a critical eye, then held her hand to the side, summoning Pattern. The Blade formed—a long, thin weapon nearly as tall as she was.

“Pattern,” she said, “can modulate his shape, and will dull his edge to safe levels. I shan’t need such a clunky device.” Indeed, Pattern’s edge rippled, dulling.

“Storms, that’s handy. I’ll still need one though.” Adolin summoned his own Blade, a process that took him ten heartbeats—during which he turned his head, looking at her.

Shallan glanced down, realizing that she’d enhanced her bust in this guise. Not for him, of course. She’d just been making herself look more like Jasnah.

Adolin’s sword finally appeared, with a thicker blade than her own, sinuous along the sharp edge, with delicate crystalline ridges along the back. He put one of the guards on the sword’s edge.

Radiant put one foot forward, Blade lifted high in two hands beside her head.

“Hey,” Adolin said. “That’s not bad.”

“Shallan did spend quite a lot of time drawing you all.”

Adolin nodded thoughtfully. He approached and reached toward her with a thumb and two fingers. She thought he was going to adjust her grip, but instead he pressed his fingers against her collarbone and shoved lightly.

Radiant stumbled backward, almost tripping.

“A stance,” Adolin said, “is about more than just looking great on the battlefield. It’s about footing, center of balance, and control of the fight.”

“Noted. So how do I make it better?”

“I’m trying to decide. Everyone I’ve worked with before had been using a sword since their youth. I’m wondering how Zahel would have changed my training if I’d never even picked up a weapon.”

“From what I’ve heard of him,” Radiant said, “it will depend on where there are any convenient rooftops nearby to jump off.”

“That’s how he trained with Plate,” Adolin said. “This is Blade. Should I teach you dueling? Or should I teach you how to fight in an army?”

“I shall settle,” Radiant said, “for knowing how to avoid cutting off any of my own appendages, Brightlord Kholin.”

“Brightlord Kholin?”

Too formal. Right. That was how Radiant would act, of course—but she could allow herself some familiarity. Jasnah had done that.

“I was merely,” Radiant said, “attempting to show the respect due a master from his humble pupil.”

Adolin chuckled. “Please. We don’t need that. But here, let’s see what we can do about that stance.…”

Over the next hour, Adolin positioned her hands, her feet, and her arms a dozen times over. He picked a basic stance for her that she could eventually adapt into several of the formal stances—the ones like Windstance, which Adolin said wouldn’t rely on strength or reach as much as mobility and skill.

She wasn’t certain why he’d bothered fetching the metal sparring sleeves, as the two of them didn’t exchange any blows. Other than correcting her stance ten thousand times, he spoke about the art of the duel. How to treat your Shardblade, how to think of an opponent, how to show respect to the institutions and traditions of the duel itself.

Some of it was very practical. Shardblades were dangerous weapons, which explained the demonstrations on how to hold hers, how to walk with it, how to take care not to slice people or things while casually turning.

Other parts of his monologue were more… mystical.

“The Blade is part of you,” Adolin said. “The Blade is more than your tool; it is your life. Respect it. It will not fail you—if you are bested, it is because you failed the sword.”

Radiant stood in what felt like a very stiff pose, Blade held before herself in two hands. She’d only scraped Pattern on the ceiling two or three times; fortunately, most of the rooms in Urithiru had high ceilings.

Adolin gestured for her to perform a simple strike, as they’d been practicing. Radiant raised both arms, tilting the sword, then took a step forward while bringing it down. The entire angle of movement couldn’t have been more than ninety degrees—barely a strike at all.

Adolin smiled. “You’re catching it. A few thousand more of those, and it will start to feel natural. We’ll have to work on your breathing though.”

“My breathing?”

He nodded absently.

“Adolin,” Radiant said, “I assure you, I have been breathing—without fail—my entire life.”

“Yeah,” he said. “That’s why you’re going to have to unlearn it.”

“How I stand, how I think, how I breathe. I have trouble distinguishing what is actually relevant, and what is part of the subculture and superstition of swordsmen.”

“It’s all relevant,” Adolin said.

“Eating chicken before a match?”

Adolin grinned. “Well, maybe some things are personal quirks. But the swords are part of us.”

“I know mine is part of me,” Radiant said, resting the Blade at her side and setting her gloved safehand on it. “I’ve bonded it. I suspect this is the origin of the tradition among Shardbearers.”

“So academic,” Adolin said, shaking his head. “You need to feel this, Shallan. Live it.”

That would not have been a difficult task for Shallan. Radiant, however, preferred not to feel things she hadn’t considered in depth beforehand.

“Have you considered,” she said, “that your Shardblade was once a living spren, wielded by one of the Knights Radiant? Doesn’t that change how you look at it?”

Adolin glanced toward his Blade, which he’d left summoned, strapped with the sheath and set across her blankets. “I’ve always kind of known. Not that it was alive. That’s silly. Swords aren’t alive. I mean… I’ve always known there was something special about them. It’s part of being a duelist, I think. We all know it.”

She let the matter drop. Swordsmen, from what she’d seen, were superstitious. As were sailors. As were… well, basically everyone but scholars like Radiant and Jasnah. It was curious to her how much of Adolin’s rhetoric about Blades and dueling reminded her of religion.

How strange that these Alethi often treated their actual religion so flippantly. In Jah Keved, Shallan had spent hours painting lengthy passages from the Arguments. You’d speak the words out loud over and over, committing them to memory while kneeling or bowing, before finally burning the paper. The Alethi instead preferred to let the ardents deal with the Almighty, like he was some annoying parlor guest who could be safely distracted by servants offering a particularly tasty tea.

Adolin let her do some more strikes, perhaps sensing that she was growing tired of having her stance constantly adjusted. As she was swinging, he grabbed his own Blade and fell in beside her, modeling the stance and the strikes.

After a short time of that she dismissed her Blade, then picked up her sketchbook. She quickly flipped past the drawing of Radiant, and started to sketch Adolin in his stance. She was forced to let some of Radiant bleed away.

“No, stand there,” Shallan said, pointing at Adolin with her charcoal. “Yes, like that.”

She sketched out the stance, then nodded. “Now strike, and hold the last position.”

He did so. By now he’d removed his jacket, standing in only shirt and trousers. She did like how that tight shirt fit him. Even Radiant would admire that. She wasn’t dead, just pragmatic.

She looked over the two sketches, then resummoned Pattern and fell into position.

“Hey, nice,” Adolin said as Radiant performed the next few strikes. “Yeah, you’ve got it.”

He again fell in beside her. The simple attack he’d taught her was obviously a poor test of his skills, but he executed it with precision nonetheless, then grinned and started talking about the first few lessons he’d had with Zahel long ago.

His blue eyes were alight, and Shallan loved seeing that glow from him. Almost like Stormlight. She knew that passion—she’d felt what it was to be alive with interest, to be consumed by something so fully that you lost yourself in the wonder of it. For her it was art, but watching him, she thought that the two of them weren’t so different.

Sharing these moments with him and drinking of his excitement felt special. Intimate. Even more so than their closeness had been earlier in the evening. She let herself be Shallan in some of the moments, but whenever the pain of holding the sword started to spike—whenever she really thought about what she was doing—she was able to become Radiant and avoid it.

She was genuinely reluctant to see the time end, so she let it stretch into the late evening, well past when she should have called a halt. At long last, Shallan bade a tired, sweaty farewell to Adolin and watched him trot down the strata-lined hallway outside, a spring to his step, a lamp in his hands, blade guards held on his shoulder.

Shallan would have to wait another night to visit taverns and hunt for answers. She trailed back into her room—strangely contented for all that the world might be in the middle of ending. That night she slept, for once, in peace.

 

Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book 3 copyright © 2017 Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC

About the Author

Brandon Sanderson

Author

Author Brandon Sanderson is the author of the best-selling Stormlight Archive fantasy series. His published works include Elantris (2005), Warbreaker (2009), the ongoing Mistborn series, the Alcatraz and Reckoners YA series, and many more.

Following the death of Robert Jordan in 2007, Jordan's wife and editor Harriet McDougal recruited Sanderson to finish Jordan's epic multi-volume fantasy series The Wheel of Time from Jordan's extensive drafts and notes. The series was concluded in 2013 with the publication of A Memory of Light, by Jordan and Sanderson.

Wikipedia |Author Page | Goodreads

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Jacob
7 years ago

Damn you beat me! haha

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StormLord
7 years ago

Tuesday is finally here, and we have Kaladin!!!

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7 years ago

Is it just me, or does the way Shallan speaks throw you out of the story. I did not expect people on Roshar to say things like “Just a sec.” That’s far too American slang for me.

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7 years ago

Can’t still read it for at least some hours (who invented jobs and work, anyway?), but gave a quick glance to see who we have this time. My thought: It’s going to be awesome, and we don’t even have Lift!

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7 years ago

Yes! So excited to read these chapters. Unfortunately, they come in just as I arrive to work… Perhaps I’ll just slack off for a bit so I can read.. ;P

 

Or I could wait for a break to read this :(

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Kefka
7 years ago

Not much mind-blowing stuff here, apart from Kaladin’s unfortunately short chapter, but Adolin/Shallan was kinda cute.

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7 years ago

Not much of substance in these chapters imo, a few interesting points though,

1) we assume that odium has a massive influence on the changed parshmen, but having them rediscovering their minds? That seems a little strange to me, how strong is his influence and what could the motivation of these parshendi be?

 

2) shallans “hiding” from the truth by becoming someone else? This seems like behaviour that could be very counterintuitive to her order and the truth of self awareness

 

As I said, not much there but a few small discussion points

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7 years ago

New chapters! I’m so interested in seeing the complete shake up of ranks and gender divisions with the new Radiants.. We did see a bit of unfortunate classism from both Adolin and Shallan there, which is realistic, but still :(

Then of course Kaladin’s dawning realisation of just how badly mistreated the parshmen were. I’m kind of glad he surrendered to them, but I am worried about how this is going to play out in the rest of the story..

And oh no Shallan, don’t do that. :( Did we see her actually referring to herself out loud in the third person there?

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7 years ago

“No mating!”

Dies and is ded.

What in damnation was the point of sticking that Kaladin chapter in there? Other than to drive us mad, I mean.

@8 They probably need to hold the truths close so they don’t start dissociating like, um, crazy.

 

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7 years ago

@9 the weirdest part of that third person bit was that Adolin didn’t seem to think anything of it. That seemed really strange to me.

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7 years ago

“Dividing by zero” is now my new fandom euphemism. 

Also, someone needs to write a fic where Syl and Pattern teach a sex ed course. 

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7 years ago

Good read, but less interesting chapters than the last few weeks. I really wonder what’s going on with the parshmen Kaladin met. This seems a throwback to Dalinar in the last book, he was wondering if he should unite more than just men, and wanted to include the Parshendi. I think he had the right of it all along.

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MelSnitker
7 years ago

“What,” Pattern said with a hum, “is a chaperone?”

“That is someone who watches two young people when they are together, to make certain they don’t do anything inappropriate.”

“Inappropriate?” Pattern said. “Such as… dividing by zero?”

 

This made me laugh so hard I’m sure I looked like an absolute crazy person. The programmer in me couldn’t help it.

 

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Jacob
7 years ago

 shortest kaladin chapter ever…

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Bless
7 years ago

 @10 I felt the chapter was more about a parshmen POV, they look like they were just struggling to survive, reminded me of refugees. Though I did take note of one proper tent which I assume is hiding something or someone important.

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7 years ago

@16 Sure, but did it have to stop *there*?! Another scene would have been much less infuriating and it’s not like the chapter was overlong or anything.

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 11 I can imagine Adolin not noticing right away. He was trying to teach someone to handle a very deadly weapon, which he was probably focused on. I also bet he calls her Shallan when he thinks about her, so that wouldn’t have stood out in the moment.

But maybe later this is something he’s going to think about when he thinks back and wonders if she sounded off. Shan’t? Noted? Brightness Kholin? Really, Shallan. :’) It seems she’s really trying to lightweave herself into being an Elsecaller, at least for now.

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7 years ago

OK, Adolin and Shallan are so cute here I find myself choosing a side in all the shipping nonsense.  Adolin brought her food and skipped dinner to eat with her, they banter very nicely, and they genuinely enjoy being around each other.  It’s so sweet, and it reads like a real relationship.  Especially how both of them are worried about screwing it up somehow.  Of course, this is the Stormlight Archive, so even the fluffy, happy bits have a dark undercurrent.  Here they are, both hiding dark secrets:  Shallan, her parents’ murder; Adolin, Sadeas’s murder.  I think this will bring them closer together in the long run rather than driving them apart, though.  I like how Adolin’s response to Shallan being a Radiant is to start training her to weild her Blade, and how Shallan makes the connection between their passions for art and swordplay.  I’m usually indifferent to shipping, but now I find I’ll actually be disapointed if this one sinks.

Pattern is the best chaperone.  :D  Also, he doesn’t seem to have Syl’s unease about the dead Blades and their weilders.  Maybe Cryptics are simply more pragmatic that honorspren? (They’d almost have to be.)  Maybe the lie of it appeals to his nature?  And for all of the comic relief he provided, he also has the most heartwrenching moment here, where he offers to die and let another take his place.  He’s so loved the world, learning and experiencing.  He loves Shallan more.  I’m tearing up here.

Kaladin’s chapter:  The Parshendi have spren!  They’re recovering consciousness, and wearing a new form!  Oh my gods, Kaladin is the perfect person to discover this, based on his Windrunner oaths and his life experience.  This is going to be so amazing!

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Gnmish
7 years ago

I absolutely love the fact that the Everstorm’d Parshmen aren’t just raving ghouls!

Can’t wait to see them have an argument over what the hell to do with a captive now that they have one.

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StormLord
7 years ago

Kaladin thought that the protective sheath for the shardblade was made during the time of the Radiants but why would they need them if they could make their shardblades dull already?

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gowtham prudhvi
7 years ago

Wow that two shallan chapters without much substance and such a short kaladin chapter  after waiting a week is really frustrating!

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Ambly
7 years ago

Kaladin chapter WAY TOO SHORT.

 

It shouldn’t surprise me that every Tuesday morning is a sweet taste and bitter longing, but it kinda does every week.

 

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7 years ago

I couldn’t help but feel sympathy for the “Voidbringers” here. Sitting in the rain, eating soggy grain, frustrated at not knowing the card game.  Like @16, I do wonder what’s in that tent.

Kaladin mentions that they spoke like Alethi – so still no rhythms for the former parshmen?

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Andrew
7 years ago

Okay, I had to stop mid-read of the first chapter to comment.

“The trick to happiness wasn’t in freezing every momentary pleasure and clinging to each one, but in ensuring one’s life would produce many future moments to anticipate.” -Shallan

I have a whole lot of friends who could stand to read that every day.  Make it a mantra, even.

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7 years ago

Side note: If the next chapter opens with Kaladin teaching these parsh-persons to play cards, I may be overcome with delight. Pity The Lopen isn’t there to do it.

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7 years ago

Those two Shallan chapters are among my favorite so far. I absolutely love them. Here are my thoughts in no particular order.

– I loved the Shallan and Adolin exchange. I thought it was so sweet to read they are both afraid they will screw it up. Adolin admitting he is bad at relationships and he fears he will screw up was a very touching moment. Especially since Shallan is afraid of the same thing.

– This scene dispel doubts with respect to Shallan’s real feelings towards Adolin: she wants to be with him because she likes him. There was no hint of “need”, it was all about desire and I loved it.

– Cursed you Brandon for dropping so blatant hints Shallan will move into a relationship with Kaladin because I never want to read anything else than Adolin/Shallan, not after reading those chapters.

– Pattern was hilarious, lecturing the kids on copulating.

– Adolin gets Shallan to try out man’s food thus showing us he isn’t the narrow-minded idiots so many readers loved to depict. Here is a man who stumbles on a woman defying all customs he was raised into and his reaction is: “Why not? Let’s embrace it. Why can’t women fight?”.

– Adolin actually read (or was read books) books and he actually thought some were interesting. He brings about relevant books to Shallan to help her improve her knowledge. He said he appreciated those books. So again Adolin proves he isn’t just a mindless simpleton. He too knows things, he too is smart, he just doesn’t show it very often. When standing in front of Navani and Jasnah, I can’t blame him for it.

– Adolin wants to teach Shallan how to fight! Amazing! He doesn’t care she is a woman and we see him, with something he is passionate about. Shallan thinks his behavior is similar to how she feels towards art and think this is one thing they both have in common. So there again, they aren’t so different after all.

– Shallan and Adolin both agrees on the importance of secrets.

– Adolin insists the murder was done by two different people: he is NOT trying to pin his murder onto someone else. Poor Shallan, she can’t know he knows.

– I so wanted Adolin and Shallan to trade blows to see what would have happened. Next time.

– Adolin talking about his Blade was mesmerizing. He does not care knowing it once was alive: he claims he always knew it, but then says all duelists are the same. No Adolin, they aren’t. It is only you.

– Adolin telling Shallan how to be a partner with her Blade, so cute and so true.

– Not much to say about the Kaladin chapters: Voidrbringers aren’t happening as they expected. These Parshendis were former slaves who seem to have woken up. We’ll see where this goes.

– Shallan promising neither of them will ever screw it up bores foreshadowing for the opposite to happen.

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Melissa
7 years ago

Adolin “I feel like the murders could have been done by two different people.”

Shallan “Oh that’s cute but unlikely.”

Adolin “…..no. I REALLY feel like maybe it was two different people.”

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7 years ago

The phrase “it will depend on where there are any convenient rooftops nearby to jump off.” is awkward, and took 3 rereads to figure out. I think it would be easier if it said “it will depend on whether there are any convenient rooftops nearby to jump off.”

 

Anyway, this was fun :) I wish I could have seen more of Kal’s POV, but it’s certainly very interesting that he now gets a little insight into the listeners. :) “Surrendering” seems like a good choice there.

 

Shallan and Adolin are so funny together. I like them. She definitely needs to work through some of those issues – but obviously the difficult truths of her order are intended to make those cracks, so that the spren can fill them and invest them. This also has the advantage of pulling their spren more into the physical, making them more competent.

 

Thank you Brandon Sanderson, and thank you TOR! This is awesome.

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FSS
7 years ago

i’m becoming convinced that the author is NOT Jasnah, or anyone of the current age, but the last Bondsmith, who changed the voidbringers into Parshmen, and whose actions led to the Recreance…

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Paulander
7 years ago

I am really enjoying these chapters with lighthearted banter, and general feeling of fun. But generally, the sweeter the beginning the more heatwrenching the book’s end. I hope my favorite couple stays together, Though I worry about how much they are keeping from each other. And Kaladin’s chapter was way too short!

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7 years ago

Love the new chapters! Adolin and Shallan can be very cute around each other. NO MATING!! Shallan and Adolin Shardblade training together.

Very adorable.

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TheoryCrafter
7 years ago

@@@@@ 30 – Now that’s an interesting thought. I could have sworn that there was a comment in one of the previous two books about how parshmen couldn’t bond with spren (with a Nahel bond. The spren they find for their forms is different?). But reading Kaladin’s chapter made me rethink that. The “yellow ribbon of light” very heavy implies a spren bond. Could a voidbringer be a radiant? That would be unique… Anyway, what if a Bondsmith not only brings (bonds) people together, but also severs bonds? Could they do that? That might be how they got all of the remaining voidbringers from the last desolation to become parshmen without killing them.

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gautam
7 years ago

@27 I think Shallan and Adolin seem too perfect for them to be together.Seriously They know nothing much about each other(there is nothing much to know about Adolin anyway).Adolin only sees the upper layer of shallan and knows nothing about her inner Darkness.Even kaladin in a day knows more about shallan than Adolin does.Their relationship is cute because they know nothing about each other!

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Ray Slone
7 years ago

You know this is brilliant the way he’s giving out the chapters a couple at a time, by the time the book is actually released we’ll all be foaming at the mouth ready to buy it

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7 years ago

The chapters are great, but I am really disappointed with the epigraphs we have read so far.  Normally, these epigraphs would have some nice world building in them.  But these epigraphs have been largely content free.

More importantly, they are redundant.  They keep saying the same thing over and over.  If I read a preface to a book like this, I am not sure I would read the rest of the book.  I would think the author could not get to the point.

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7 years ago

I’m so fascinated in the differences in Vorinism between countries we learn about in these excerpts. From the four we know about (Alethkar, Jah Keved, Karbranth, Herdaz), Jah Keved seems to be the most religiously active by far, and most segregated by gender. Then there’s Herdaz, which is ‘technically’ Vorin, but has their own brand of it, with different customs.. (Lopen doesn’t mind Sigzil reading, while Shallan is made uncomfortable by even the thought of it).

Even though Vorinism has a strict gender split, Alethi women seem perfectly allowed to wander out into war zones and in other sensitive places, such as murder scenes, as long as they’re not  technically warriors (yay female scouts and engineers). Religion is left mostly to the ardents, who apparently distract the Almighty with tea. :) Any personal religious worship is done through callings, which do not seem to be very.. worshippy, especially as most lighteyes pick something they enjoy anyway (random aside, I really want to know what Renarin’s calling is).

Jah Keved apparently keeps women much more at home, and seems to require a lot more active religious worship, as Shallan mentions in these chapters. It’s such an interesting detailed bit of worldbuilding, that influences the characters at their core. It might very well be why Shallan was so uncomfortable with ‘not being femine’ as a knight radiant a few chapters ago, while the scout got excited about female knights with shardblades. :) Though maybe this chapter shows Shallan (hopefully as Shallan) is starting to let go of this strict division a bit.

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Whiskeyjack
7 years ago

I get that when you have the full book, that short chapter is no big deal but…

Grrrr! Sanderson did that on purpose!

Glad to see Kal mostly getting over his biggest internal issues in WoR, realizing we will have to watch Shallan do it this book.

Kal is truly honorable now and I’m sure we will get shard plate this book (especially with it being mentioned by characters).

 

 

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7 years ago

@30: I’m not sure about the books author, it seems to be Jasnah’s voice. I know the Listeners’ songs record that they chose to sever themselves from the gods, but that choice could have been made with the assistance of the Bondsmiths. And since we learned in Edgedancer *spoiler* that Nale is following Ishar, and that the entire Recreance might have happened at his bequest just because someone might bond with a Voidspren, and that the Heralds are “getting worse,” I’ve been giving Ishar and everything to do with him a suspicious side-eye.

Note: message edited by moderator to white out potential spoiler.

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gameguy
7 years ago

Could the transformed parshman be voidbringer squires, like the members of bridge four in a way? Being trained by a full voidbringer to become voidbringers themselves? Then the chapter’s title would have a bit of a double meaning.

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FSS
7 years ago

@33 – thanks.  I was thinking of this guy:

 

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 675). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

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nods
7 years ago

Shallan’s chapters are definitely fun. They don’t have to be all action or full of information, just the right amount of character building can make it interesting. Too bad Kaladin’s chapter is short, can’t wait for next week’s chapters to start off with him being a ‘captive’ once more.

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Joshua Danes
7 years ago

@36

What we have of the preface is as follows:

I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist.  I needed to write it anyway.  I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims.  I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written. I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond.  I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen.  I did not die.  I experienced something worse.  That moment notwithstanding, I can honestly say this book has been brewing in me since my youth.  The sum of my experiences has pointed at this moment. This decision.  Perhaps my heresy stretches back to those days in my childhood, where these ideas began.  I ask not that you forgive me. Nor that you even understand.  I ask only that you read or listen to these words.  In this record, I hold nothing back. I will try not to shy away from difficult topics, or paint myself in a dishonestly heroic light.  I will express only direct, even brutal, truth. You must know what I have done, and what those actions cost me. 

That does not seem so redundant to me.  it seems like a decent preface for someone to look at and think to themselves “hmm, this guy might have had a reason for what he did, lets read.”  that being said, i do not think this is Jasnah.  it could be, but this feels much more like Taravangian.  Jasnah has been heretical for some time, but T for much longer, and his cost seems much greater than any Jasnah would ever admit to.

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FSS
7 years ago

oops – Joshua @43 posted the same thing I had here.  Deleting mine… 

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jms1969
7 years ago

Love the Shallan chapters – NO MATING!!!

The Kaladin chapter was obviously short, but it might tell us where part of this story might be heading.  The Parshmen he sees don’t appear to be Voidbringers – no glowing red eyes, but they certainly aren’t the Parshmen slaves the Alethi are used to.  I think the ones in the group that Kaladin seem moved from “Slaveform” to “Dullform” and are just trying to survive at this point.

The spren who sees Kaladin, however, doesn’t quite fit this simple model.  Could there be a Parshman Radiant here?  Is the story going to be as clear-cut as all Parshman become Voidbringers, or might some be neutral or even on the side of Honor/Cultivation?

 

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7 years ago

@36 there is a reason why this other story is not being written as it’s own book…

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Whiskeyjack
7 years ago

I’d always thought Sanderson too clever to make all the parshmen evil Voidbringers like Orcs/Goblins. Remember in WoR even some in Stormform were able to dissent and eventually lead the others to escape. I like that things have evolved. This desolation is entering new territory for all and some rules will have to be rewritten.

“Spren betrayed them for the humans” Humans betrayed the spren but now they are back, hopefully that means the intelligent spren will come back to the Parshendi and we get Parshendi radiants

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FSS
7 years ago

#39 – the line in the epigraph from before specifically mentions women reading the work and judging the author, which seems to limit it to more current authors, since men stopped reading. so I could well be wrong, and I accept that.  guessing the epigraphs author is a fun thing to do while waiting for the book.

in my mind, however, I have a hard time thinking it’s jasnah’s work, since I’m not sure what she would have to do with oaths in general or the shard blade ‘oath bringer’ in particular.  also, I like the idea of a written confession from the person who may have severed the void bringers from their spren and turned them into parshmen (also speculative, I know), and because of this, somehow created the situation that led to ALL the knights radiant to abandon their oaths (also speculative).  

so, I know it’s a house of cards; that’s the fun.  we’ll see if it survives next week’s eipgraphs.  I won’t believe it’s jasnah until it flats says it’s written by her…

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7 years ago

I agree that the parshmen don’t seem to be voidbringers. They appear to have transformed into other standard Listener forms and “woken up” from their centuries-long stupor in slave form. I think Kaladin will talk to them and relate to them as fellow freed slaves. He will probably try to protect them from other humans who assume they all need to be mass-murdered to prevent a transformation into void form. It could get messy.

“Dividing by zero” is probably the funniest thing I’ve read in Stormlight so far. Love Pattern and his mathematical mind. 

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Bob
7 years ago

Born under the sign of the nine? The champion of Odium had 9 shadows didn’t he? I think that’s confirmation right there.

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Drygdor
7 years ago

Thinking about poor Pattern just trying so hard to figure out what Shallan meant by ‘inappropriate’ cracks me up. I keep imagining his lines all scrunching up in thought, running through the possibilities after his first obvious thought was turned down until realization dawned. Well done, Brandon, well done.

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strider
7 years ago

This makes me think of the recreance. The feeling Kaladin has, was it similar to what the KR had? Did the humans ask/force the KR to kill all the parshmen? Did that lead to them betraying their oaths (To watch and train for desolations) 

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7 years ago

@43

after i read all those sentences compiled together(thanks), i heavily suspect that author is Gavilar

my reasoning is not very complicated:

most popular theories are Renarin and Jasnah , but the text implies that something was done by author at great cost. It might be that this “thing” has yet to happen in the 3rd book, but i doubt that, i feel like we wouldn’t have gotten text that starts telling about a story that has not happend yet.( and Jasnah doesnt seem to have done anything drastic enough to start talking about costs and apologies, plus she is already regarded as a heretic, why talk about it in the text)

While Gavilar planing to start a great war, bringing back the voidbringers, and ultimatly getting assasinated(he could have forseen it) seems to fit this text.

sorry for the english

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Lore
7 years ago

theory: the parshendi(sp) need the red storm light to be the voidbringers. they don’t have any right now so they’re just awakened parshmen that don’t know what it is to be a listener which is why they speak alethi: it’s all they know.

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StormLord
7 years ago

What if OB was written by a Radiant? either a lightweaver or an elsecaller, because those are the only kind that we know can enter Shadesmar, and then they left it in Urithiru? We know they haven’t explored the whole thing and that they didn’t find any books as Shallan had hoped for. Maybe they will find a library of some sort. I think OB was either in Urithiru or being written by Jasnah, because Jasnah read and shared with Shallan all the books she knew about referring to Radiants and Shadesmer.

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Ryan
7 years ago

Oh my gosh! I frogot it was Tuesday!  This is every bit as good as forgetting that it’s Friday and that you have the weekend to look forward to!!!

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7 years ago

Bwahahaha, “Dividing by Zero”. I love Pattern so much. :D

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7 years ago

Well I’m the guy that said it had to be Jasnah and anything else is a waste of time but yeah, I don’t see Jasnah spending that much time defending herself. She would get right to the point, opinions be damned.

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Jon
7 years ago

My quote of the day:

“Inappropriate?” Pattern said. “Such as… dividing by zero?”

Being a software engineer this just made me laugh.

 

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7 years ago

“The trick to happiness wasn’t in freezing every momentary pleasure and clinging to each one, but in ensuring one’s life would produce many future moments to anticipate.”

I love how Sanderson weaves his social commentary into the story. Such a brilliant man.

I enjoyed these chapters. I don’t have a lot of theories right now.

Last week, I had a moment when I feared Jasnah might be the Radiant with Taravangian. That would be such a frustrating turn of events.

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StormLord
7 years ago

@53 I doubt that Gavilar wrote OB because we know he was on the path to become a Bondsmith and as far as we know they cant enter Shadesmar.

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Joshua Danes
7 years ago

@61 I don’t see why not, when Kaladin started using his abilities once he made it to Dalinar’s army he ended up seeing Shadesmar.  Knowing this gives us 3 orders that see Shadesmar specifically, I would bet all ten have a connection that they can manipulate somehow.

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

Regarding the author or Oathbringer – I think we can rule out two popular theories:

Jasnah – “I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen.” I doubt she would consider Shallan telling someone that she had died would make Jasnah consider that the person “saw further” than she did.

Sunmaker – the author hanging between realms suggests they were bonded to a spren, which as far as we know wasn’t happening during the period of the Heirocracy. Though I suppose it is possible he had some other form of investiture which allowed this, but it seems a stretch.

As for who it actually is, we’ll have to WAFO, but speculation is fun. The comment about “women reading this” does imply it’s a reasonably modern text as the vision with Nohadon heavily implies men can write in that era. Though this doesn’t necessarily mean it’s from the “current” era as the Vorin traditions appear to have been around for a while. So it could potentially pre-date the Sunmaker and have been one of his inspiration, it would depend on when Vorin cultural sensibilities developed to assign male/female activities so prescriptively.

Though it could also be authored very recently or slightly in the future. Of the two I think slightly in the future is most likely as the preface doesn’t quite fit any of the key characters…yet. As for who’s most likely if this is the case – perhaps Taravangian. We know he can read and write and that he is very carefully manipulating how he is viewed which would make sense of the snippets with todays chapters. But how he would end up hanging between the realms, I’m not sure. Could be connected to his curse/boon or maybe he’s bonded a spren.

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7 years ago

Loved the dividing by zero and the no mating. 

I am concerned with Shallan developing a personality who can deal with her trauma.  I am very much afraid of a split personality disorder arising.  Given we are already have autism and depression in viewpoint characters, it wouldn’t surprise me if she heads down that path.

So excited to see the next Kaladin chapter. I wondered at that light that gave the alarm about Kaladin. A bounded spren immediately jumped to mind.  Could be bonded to someone out of sight in the tent he couldn’t see inside   I am happy we are getting so much of the book ahead of time because it means I have a real shot at finishing what’s left in a day once it is out.

.

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Ambly
7 years ago

I don’t think there are parshmen/listener radients yet.

I think there could be, but It appears most parshment are in more common forms.

I think they will be led by voidbringers though. A few among each group, will have power from voidspren. Voidspren are of Odium, so only the parshmen who had the most hate in their hearts would have attracted or been compatible enough to bond with voidspren. 

It seems on Roshar the Listeners were the original inhabitants, and bonding spren was part of their lifecycle. The more intelligent spren migrated to humans after humans arrived because they gain more from the Human bond than they do from the Listener/Parshmen bond. The higher spren are probably necessary for forms of power. 

Pattern looks down on the creation spren, because they “don’t do anything”. However, Eshonai’s warriors were trying to attract creation spren in order to regain Art form.

It seems Parshendi can make use of many lesser spren to focus their form on attributes that match their focus and goals. (A bit parallel to Alethi callings and devotaries imo). However, the more capable spren bring the forms of power. 

They ‘betrayed’ the parshendi by going to the humans, and he parshendi regained power going to Odium.

I dont think anything ever said parshendi COULD not bond the greater spren such as Cryptics or Honorspen or  Cultivation Spren, but that the Spren get more from a human bond. 

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7 years ago

@63

 

Who says she was referring to Shallan? Lots of other people thought her dead, most of all Mraize.

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7 years ago

@34: Everyone is entitled to not like the pairing, but stating “there is nothing to know about Adolin” and “they know nothing about each other” is a tad reductionist and simplistic. These chapters were full of insights on Adolin’s character: there is definitely more about him then he lets on.

Adolin and Shallan may not know they deepest personal secrets, but they know enough about each other to feel comfortable one around the other, to enjoy each other’s presence, to tease one another, to reverse male/female traditional roles and to be genuine on with each other.

As far as I am concerned, this matters a great deal more than having Shallan confess she killed her mother and Adolin confessed he killed Sadeas. These are one time events: personality compatibility bears a greater significance, to me at the very least.

I love the chapters, my favorites so far. It finally gives Shallan some spotlight and it yields her story arc into interesting places (learning how to fight!). I love the sweetness of her with Pattern and how she is trying trying to cope without breaking her oaths once again.

Unlike many, I did not mind the short Kaladin chapter, not much is happening with him currently. I also find myself more invested into the Urithiru and the Dalinar/Adolin/Shallan story arc than his.

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@50 Bob

I’m not sure your comment was particularly serious. But as 10 is such an important number in Vorin culture, I suspect that they have 10 star signs linking to the 10 Heralds in much the same way as we have 12 Zodiac signs. So this would just mean that Adolin (along with approximately 10% of all people in Roshar) happened to be born under that one.

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@@@@@ 53 zzladeii

It wouldn’t be the first time in Stormlight that the chapter headings were from a text discussing the events currently happening – The end of WoR has Navani’s writings on the Everstorm.

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7 years ago

Wonderful! Though there are a couple of jarring nitpicks:

Washwomen? How would washing and handling wet laundry in public work when you have to keep one of your hands gloved at all times? That’s the problem with just borrowing stuff from iRL/ fantasy tropes when your worldbuilding changes some fundamental aspects of society. 

“Just a sec…”  Urgh. Did we actually see a clock on Roshar? Even if they have them, keeping track of seconds is a very modern thing, from a society where everybody has a precise time-keeping device. Nobody would have used such an expression even in the early 20-ieth century.

Otherwise I really love Shallan’s chapters, both for what they reveal about her on-going struggles and what they show us about Adolin. And Pattern is hilarious! And poignant.

I guess that Adolin didn’t react to Shallan talking about herself in the third person and generally behaving oddly, because he thought that she was just excersizing her off-beat sense of humor. But yea, it probably isn’t a healthy approach to her problems. Though, later on, when she starts to vascillate between the “Radiant” and “Shallan” – that might lead to integration and acceptance, maybe?

Beyond that, Shallan’s dark subconscious premonitions re: the tower hint at bad things to come. Her mind is also going in the same direction as mine – have there been other murders? I bet yes, and whoever killed the officer was trying to throw people off their scent. Ialai is such an obvious suspect, that I think that there might be some twist.

Oh, and what was Sadeas doing, prowling the corridors alone? A Highprince without a single guard? And one who was normally  quite careful? Didn’t seem like him, really. Maybe he intended to meet somebody without witnesses?

Oh, and the thing with ex-parshmen is pretty earth-shattering! They are _not_ in dullform – could it be the worker form? And, they didn’t magically acquire experience and skills, though they do remember some things observed passively during their enslavement. Nor did they recover Rythms? I used to think that Thude and his bunch would steal the parshmen from Alethi camps and save them from possession by odium-spren by keeping them sheltered during the Everstorm and shoving them out into a highstorm, so that they could bond naturally, but this is better. And a very interesting turn of events. Thude et al. and hopefully de-stormed Eshonai still have a chance to pass on their culture and re-build their people. Hopefully, parshmen in the War camps weren’t just slaughtered and they can get to them in time. And, of course, Radiants’ whole approach to them needs to change.

OTOH, judging by the cover of the book, there is still going to be a massive battle, so…

I am very curious re: the yellow spren that raised the alarm. It is clearly sentient. Is it an odium-spren? The Odium’s champion was surrounded by terrible, but beautiful golden light. Or is it related to the orange spren that kept following Eshonai and trying to recall her to herself? 

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7 years ago

@64 I think Shallan’s oaths will keep her from suffering from serious dissociation. Even as she uses the Brightness Radiant personality to distance herself from her Truths, she still has a touchstone to her core self. She can’t, without repudiating Pattern, forget that she is Shallan who killed her father and her mother.

I don’t think Shallan actually referred to herself in the first person out loud. To Adolin’s point of view, she was probably just a bit more self-possessed and formal than her usual self.

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7 years ago

@various I never liked the whole “This relationship is too perfect” it will fail. Thing.  I also don’t like the whole…Kaladin is more protagonistic(Probably not a word) than Adolin therefore he’s going to get the girl (Somebody mentioned this in a previous set of chapters I think).

Some have theorized that lots of things are foreshadowing doom and disaster for the Shallan/Adolin relationship.  I don’t buy it. There is certainly some foreshadowing of complication for the relationship with Kaladin being thrown in the mix.

Brandon Sanderson is perfectly happy to allow arranged marriages to work. Evidence: Elantris, also sort of Warbreaker, and Mistborn Wax/Steris. While this doesn’t mean he will always make arranged marriages work he certainly isn’t going to make it not work for that reason.

The fact that both people have similar secrets tells me that if either finds out about the other one it might just help ease some of the tension and allow the relationship to work better.

As things stand I can’t really see any good evidence for their relationship to fail.  Things will come up that will cause drama, certainly…but I feel like their relationship is built upon really important stuff.  Yes there are secrets but for the most part both of them are being completely honestly who they really are and they are both ok with it.

I’m rambling at this point I just don’t see any signs of the relationship ending that some other people seem to be.

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@66 Wingracer

I would say the same principle applies to Mraize – sending assassins to kill her and mistakenly believing they were successful does not sound like “seeing further” either.

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7 years ago

A wild speculation: What if it’s Eshonai hidden in that tent? If she was able to get free of stormform and bind with a spren-the one she saw following her about-and, if it were a spren of the Willshapers, Kelek’s order, who most seem to fit her nature as an explorer, she might have been able to Elsecall herself to Alethkar proper. Maybe she’s trying to round up parshmen / Parshendi who haven’t been claimed by the Everstorm yet and protect them.

Time to go look up the description of the spren that follows her in WoR. It’s a long shot, but I really want to see Eshonai again.

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7 years ago

@74 Oh, that’s a cruel thing. Getting my hopes up with unfounded speculation. It would be lovely if Eshonai were returned to us so soon.

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Trimbolemadhi
7 years ago

Various thoughts:

– In-book OB must be a book in Taravangian’s possession. In his absolutely most brilliant, he still needed to have significant knowledge to be able to create the Diagram. I suspect that Sunmaker named his sword after that book, rather than the book title being inspired by the sword

– Adolin becoming highprince – Interesting that it was not referenced in the discussion with Shallan. Him becoming the head of house Kholin means that if the murder is discovered (as it’s bound to be for dramatic effect), it’s likely to lead to infighting within Alethkar between House Kholin and House Sadeas. Also, Adolin might end up dead with a knife in his eye (burned out). We know there are assassins other than Szeth in operation.

– Renarin – did anyone catch that he was described to be cut from different cloth? Almost as if Dalinar’s wife was in an unhappy marriage and had an extramarital affair. Navani hints these things were common, when she said she had been faithful to Gavilar even if she had ample reason to not be. Her kidnapping might be more like her eloping with her lover (I’ll ignore the little boy for the moment).

– Parshmen – the Parshendi needed to gather enough stromspren to be able to convert the Parshendi warriors to stormform. It’s very likely there were not enough such spren to convert every Parshman into stormform. It is interesting that there is almost no mention of violence. And from the brief interaction there doesn’t seem to be anger or resentment driving them, more likely need and curiosity to experience humans culture first hand.

– Odium – Odium seems to be the ultimate Cosmere villain. He seems trapped in the Roshar system, which is essentially a fabrial. In the grand scheme of things, if Odium is just killed in Roshar, there is no wider story arc. I wonder if Gavilar was thinking in wider Cosmere terms when suggesting change was needed – Odium needs to break free to spur evolution in the entire Cosmere

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FSS
7 years ago

ok – to tie my semi-random thoughts into a more coherent thinking, here we go…

ahem…

Oathbringer, the in-world book, will be found in urithiru, and read by shaman and/or jasnah.  it will contain the ‘confession’ of Melishi, the bondsmith who severed the bond between parshmen (not pashendi, who had broken their own bonds, and gave him the idea) and their spren, killing their personalities and tying them to slave-form.  when he severed their bonds, he created a side effect of some kind, which led to the KR being unable to maintain their oaths, which in turn led to the Recreance.  when he realized this, he wrote his confession, left the book in urithiru, and broke his Oaths, leaving the Shard Blade ‘Oathbringer’, which eventually became the sword of Alethi kings, then High Princes, before being thrown out of a window like refuse after its last owner was murdered.

 

I like the symmetry.  I’m sure I’m wrong :).

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7 years ago

@71 I suspect that’s one of the main reasons they do the whole truth thing – because their powers lend themselves to changing a Radiant inside and out, the truths give them a path back to, well, truth. 

My first thought on the “yellow streak of light” was actually of the heliodor “detecting people” fabrial. It doesn’t make any sense that the parshpeople would have one of those, but it also doesn’t make a ton of sense that they’d have a spren either. Maybe they ran across a Radiant in the countryside who agreed to help them?

 Edit: forgot to mention, something that was a big red flag for me in WOR was how Shallan “forced” Adolin to kiss her. I think that exact word is used twice. It made the relationship seem one-sided, to me. I’m glad to see Adolin genuinely enjoying being with her 

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7 years ago

Quote: 

He grinned. “You said that Jasnah was a Radiant too. Women, gaining Shardblades. It’s weird, but it’s not like we can ignore it. What about Plate? Do you have that hidden somewhere too?”

“Not that I know of,” she said. Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold, her muscles tense. She fought against the sensation. “I don’t know where Plate comes from.” 

Quote end.

Is this the first sign of Shallans plate? Or is her physical reaction because she is uncomfortable? And who gets shardplate first in this book? Kaladin?

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Chapter 13

Absolutely no help the last few weeks on the author of Oathbringer.

Adolin – “born under the sign of the nine,” huh? Have we heard that expression before? I’m going to twig to anything dealing with nine.

God, Pattern is even better than Syl.

Not one thought of Kaladin from Shallan. At least Brandon isn’t beating us over the head with the possibility of a love triangle.

 

Chapter 14

Not much to say about this chapter. The yellow figure was obviously a Spren of some kind, with the Parshmen. I like that the Parshmen aren’t immediately becoming monsters, and it makes sense. There probably aren’t going to be enough red lightning Spren to change all the Parshmen into Stormform Voidbringers. 

 

Chapter 15

Preface is not sounding much like Jasnah anymore. We’ll see.

So, if Shallan’s POV is to be trusted, Renarin did heal Adolin, it wasn’t some connection between the two, and Adolin healing himself.

Adolin is… a really good man, by Alethi standards. He’s surprisingly flexible when presented with new information.

On to the comments…

 

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StormLord
7 years ago

@62 I don’t recall Kaladin seeing into Shadesmar, and I’m pretty sure all orders can affect Shadesmar in some way. I was only saying that we only know that some surges, such as lightweaving, dont let you see Shadesmar.

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Joshua Danes
7 years ago

@81

When he first flies in the caverns he sees shadesmar.

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7 years ago

As part of the early Tor chapter release, will Tor release Interludes?  IIRC, the other two books have had at least one interlude at this point (after 15 chapters)

Where was Shallan’s room before she moved to Sebarial’s section of Urithiru?  Also, it is so Alethi to have staked different sections of Urithiru. 

I smiled at both Adolin and Shallan’s reaction to Adolin seeing Shallan’s bear safehand.  It these types of little interactions that makie Brandon such a wonderful writer.

What a lovely statement: “The trick to happiness wasn’t in freezing every momentary pleasure and clinging to each one, but in ensuring one’s life would produce many future moments to anticipate.”

For those who are hoping for a Shallan/Kaladin relationship, Chapter 13 did not help.

Chapter 14 killed one of my theories.  Those who stole the grain were not humans disguised to look like what they thought the Voidbringers would look like.

Was the yellow glowing ribbon that warned the transformed parshmen a spren?  If so, why would Syl have not recognized it before Kaladin “surrendered.”  By the way, I like that strategy.  He can always summon his Sylspear.  He can use a spear when he is in actual battle – he needed the Sylblade for the symbol of the Shardblade.  The townspeople would not recognize a glowing spear.  They would recognize a Shardblade.  At this point, observing as a prisoner and/or talking with the transferred parshmen would provide him with more intelligence than them.

Knights Radiant need to be somewhat broken to attract the spren.  I wonder what will happen when the KR no longer is broken.  Does the Nahel Bond still hold?  Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin (the only POV KR we have seen so far) still appear to be broken in one way or another.  Shalllan certainly.  She is just compartmentalizing her different personas: Shallan, Veil and Brightness Radiant.

I like the idea of Adolin training Shallan.  If she has a weapon she should know how to use it.  At least to defend herself.  Her to kills to date (her mother and Tyn) were lucky.  They did not realize she could summon a Blade.  In effect, they impaled themselves on her the Shardblade.  In his own way, it is Adolin trying to relate to Shallan.  In his mind, he is not very good a courting.  Perhaps he does not believe he really had anything in common with the women he courted.  Adolin knows how to use a Shardblade.  This is a way that believes he can relate to his girlfriend.  So long as Adolin feels he can relate to Shallan, there is much more of a chance that he believes that he will not doom the relationship.  

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

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justcanthelpmyself
7 years ago

At this point I hope to see an Oathbringer ARC up for sale on a DNM (dark net market) soon. That’s where it should be with the other drugs. 

I’d empty my goddamn bitcoin wallet for that shit.

Just kidding of course that would be a super shitty thing to do…I JUST NEED MORE KALADINNNNN

Braid_Tug
7 years ago

@82, AP:  Sign of the Nine – Nope.  This the is first time any form of astrology has been mentioned in the SA.  But I like that bit of world building.   But like @68, Aon Reo said, it’s probably a thing like the Zodiac, but divided by 10, since that is the more important number to Roshar.

 

RE: Short chapters – There are over 100 chapters in the book.  Some of them will be short. And some of them will be LONG…

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 73, 66 – What about Wit? We know that by the epilogue of WoR he was aware that Jasnah was alive and in Shadesmar, but do we know whether there was a time when he honestly believed she was dead? I don’t have my copy of the book at hand to check on that front. I think Jasnah could fairly describe Wit as one who saw further than she did.

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7 years ago

@75 noblehunter: The only descriptions I can find of the Eshonai-following spren are “tiny” once and “cometlike” twice. Both in Interlude I-II, New Rhythms. Compared to the description of “glowing yellow ribbon, a streak of light,” . . . Well, I got nuthin’. Could be, could be not. However, the description of stormform I-8, A Form of Power, says “She’d lost the bulky armor of warform. Instead, small ridges peeked through the skin of her arms, which was stretched tightly in places.” Also, it includes hairstrands. That also could or could not be the form these Parshmen / Parshendi are waering here. I’m thinking not, though. More differences than similarities.

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Adarsh Venkatesh
7 years ago

I feel cheated. Chapter 14 was far too short.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Braid_Tug@85:

Maybe. If so, its an unfortunate choice on Brandon’s part to make him under “the Nine” rather than “the Seven” or whatever, seeing as this would likely be read the sme day as learning about “the Nine” that surround Odium’s champion.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

SunDriedRainbow@78:

Shallan “forcing” Adolin wasn’t about Adolin being uninterested, but about how people from Jah Keved are less reserved than Alethi. Alethi don’t engage in public displays of affection. He’s not comfortable kissing Shallan in public. But Shallan isn’t willing to put up with his Alethi reservedness. 

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7 years ago

@89 Anthony Perro: Maybe he’s read all the Dark Side speculation about Adolin and he’s toying with us. :D Throwing in this bit of worldbuilding knowing fans will seize on it.

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@86 Muswell

I see where you’re coming from and don’t rule it out; Wit could certainly be described as someone who could see further than Jasnah, as could Mraize (apprenticed to a worldhopper from Scadrial and presumed worldhopper himself), along with a few others such as Taravangian.

But the way it’s written implies that their seeing further than the author is in some way connected to believing she had “fallen”, so I’m inclined to believe that the authors apparent death/fall is more mystical than Jasnahs failed assassination.

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7 years ago

I also saw a couple people mention that they enjoyed the divide by zero comment because they worked with computers in some way… that seems odd to me seeing as how not dividing by zero is a fundamental principle of division and has nothing to do with computers except that…you can’t do it there either.

I also find it interesting how well liked that line was as I read it with only passing amusement.  I did find the “No Mating” comment hilarious though…Then again everybody has a different sense of humor.

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7 years ago

About the “sign of the nine” I thought that was mentioned before this in one of the first two books.  Maybe I’m mistaken…It just sounded familiar…or looked familiar…

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7 years ago

@91 I’m sure the beta readers would have given him enough speculation about that to prompt him to add red herrings.

@93 I’m assuming divide by zero is a common or at least noticeable bug.

Werechull
7 years ago

So, if the Parshmen don’t automatically become Voidbringers, did those who listened to Jansnah’s/Shallan’s/Dalinar’s warnings slaughter thousands of innocent slaves/potential allies?

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justcanthelpmyself
7 years ago

vandaralden @93 There is a HUGE amount of math involved with computer science :) 

Braid_Tug
7 years ago

@97, Werechull:   No Pahsmen were killed by anyone’s warning in WoR.   Dalinar ordered them “left behind” at the war camps.   No one was ordered to kill anyone.   Some people grumbled enough at the Parshmen being left behind.

Shallan worried about a wholesale slaughter, by the new Voidbringers.  But no slaughter has happened yet.  On either sided – except for the battle at the end of WoR.

 

Edit: set up to take the hunny, but won’t double post to claim it.  :-(

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sharkbait
7 years ago

Ok, Pattern is hilarious.  NO MATING!  I couldn’t stop laughing.  

 

 

 

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Silarn
7 years ago

@93 Well, dividing by zero is equivalent to infinity, mathematically. In programming, dividing by zero will always cause an error because computers can’t calculate infinity. So you always have to account for it when writing dynamic equations, or your program may crash.

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Ellynne
7 years ago

Haven’t had a chance to read all the comments yet, but some thoughts:

What if that’s not Jasnah on the cover? What if it’s Shallan disguised as her? Because a knight radiant showing up to help is politically neutral or could even be taken as support for a certain, evil king who would like to kill Dalinar and friends? But, an Alethi princess, sister of the king, niece of the high king, and known atheist (independent of the ardents) is much more clearly an independent actor.

Kal’s slave marks were held against him when he turned up in his village. For the Parshendi, it may almost make him an honorary member. Like them, he seems to be a slave–and, going by his marks, the very lowest of the human slaves–who escaped during the storms.

Instead of monsters, he may be meeting up with people who are going to be kind, treat him as one of them, and already feel like they have a common bond.

I think Pattern may recognize what Shallan isn’t seeing about the murders. He sees patterns in human actions. The first murder pretty much just happened. The details were mostly circumstantial. The murder(s) since then was/were imitations, actions deliberately staged. Pattern should start seeing that, even if Shallan doesn’t at first.

Adolin needs to talk to Jasnah, The woman who deliberately sought out and killed four muggers is the only person I can think of you can safely tell you killed a man for what seemed like really good reasons at the time–and he needs to tell someone.

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Drygdor
7 years ago

A couple sections I love; first, Adolin’s sarcastic, yet arguably cryptic:

“Yes, I have quite my share of murdered rocks stuffed under my bed.”

And when Shallan says:

“…Sometimes secrets are important.”

Adolin nodded slowly. “Yeah. Yeah, they are.”

My thoughts on this are that Adolin probably really wants to tell Shallan the truth about Sadeas’ death but he’ll hold back (for a while at least) because he’s so afraid of ruining their relationship (which we know Shallan is too).

I’m not personally a shipper, I’ll let the writing do its thing, but I could see problems arising between these two once Shallan finds out Adolin murdered Sadeas, however it goes down. Not due to the nature of the thing, but more because after the intimate moments they’ve shared (especially in these chapters) that Shallan will think Adolin doesn’t trust her or think she can help. Yes, they still don’t know each other all that well, and yes, they’re both keeping secrets, but Shallan’s secret about killing her parents directly effects Adolin much less than Sadeas’ murder effects Shallan, since the two of them have been working on the case together. And it is a current, ongoing event. Guess we’ll see.

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7 years ago

@98 I didn’t say there wasn’t a huge amount of math…but there is also a huge amount of math in…math…specifically math that everybody takes regardless of major. (I graduated Computer Engineering by the way and have a job programming).

@101 mathematically, dividing by zero is undefined not infinity.  It is an illegal…or should I say…Inappropriate operation.  dividing by x as it approaches 0 is infinity. Limits are important. Using divide by zero errors you can turn 1=1 into 1=anything.  A computer has problems dividing by zero because it is defined as undefined and will throw errors because you shouldn’t be doing it.  Depending on how your hardware actually does division it theoretically could come out with a value for zero that would be recognized as NaN.

I recognize that programmers specifically use the don’t divide by zero rule more than most but it is humor that most people should be able to recognize. I just don’t see how being a programmer has an impact on whether or not you find this funny…unless you have an experience in your programming that comes to mind…or your programming instructor had a particularly good quip on dividing by zero.

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7 years ago

Shallan is actively creating in herself Dissociative identity disorder. That’s not healthy. 

I’m excited for Kaladin’s arc in this book. I hope he can protect those Listeners from the Odium forms.

Syl is encouraging Kaladin to get some. Pattern is forbidding it.  like Richard Dreyfuss from Close Encounters says “This means something. This is important.”

The extra protection after exposing her safehand was great.

We promise we won’t screw up the betrothal. Now let’s find that murderer! ::Facepalm::

ChocolateRob
7 years ago

Aha! I’ve got it. Can your Spren stop being a blade whenever it feels like it?

“OK Syl, I’m turning you into a spear and leaving you outside the room while I have company.”

If you ever approach a Radiant’s room and their blade is leaning on the outside door frame, then they probably don’t want to be disturbed…

Radiant blade on the outside is the Rosharan version of sock on the doorknob.

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Ineedmorebooks
7 years ago

Okey so i’m kinda new to the whole commenting on these kinds of threads etc, but i was just wondering if anyone else noted what Pattern said; “It’s because you hate me,” Pattern said softly. “I can die, Shallan. I can go. They will send you another to bond.”

Am i the only one going all WTF?? So the Cryptics will just send her another spren if she kills Pattern? There seems to be a whole lot of complicated stuff going on in spren politics (can i call it that?), as i distinctly remember the Stormfather forbidding all of “his” spren to bond to anyone (Syl went against his wishes), while it seems like the Cryptics will just send spren after spren even if they keep dying. 

Soo… any theories/responses? 

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7 years ago

@107 I noticed that and was surprised at that but I wasn’t sure how to approach it but you seemed to have hit a good point.

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7 years ago

Dividing by zero – NO MATING. I am so in love with Adolin and Shallan and Pattern. However, I can’t help but worry there is sorrow to come.

Now to read the other chapters.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Dividing by Zero being forbidden.

If you want to know why the joke fails as a math joke for many people, and they think its meant for programmers, read this thread:

https://www.khanacademy.org/questions/any-number-divided-by-0/kafb_5280591

Most people don’t actually know that you can’t divide by zero because its not a real-world issue, its a theoretical that they haven’t thought about in years. But all programmers get it, because its a real-world issue for them.

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sharkbait
7 years ago

First time poster today and I got a hunny! ;)

Things I found interesting

1. Adolin born under the sign of the nine.  Are we going to get more on this?  Is it significant?

2. Re:Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin- I’ve only seen it as Adolin and Shallan.  I’m glad she’s learning with the shardblade.

3. Yellow streak of light- at first i thought it might just have been a yellow infused gemstone the parshendi threw toward Kaladin to show where he was.  But in reading it again it does appear spren like.  

4. Adolin- He has a reverence for his shardblade.  He said he always “kind of” knew there was something about it.  I wonder if in the future he will become a knight radiant.  I could see him being a champion for the KR.

5. Ok, in rereading the ending of WoR and EdgeDancer, where is Nale and Szeth? What about his sword- the one that speaks to your mind and eschews wisps of darkness (hint hint).  How was that sword lost to Nale in the first place?  I wonder what Zahel is making of all this and if he, himself as a trained master swordsman would want that sword?  

 

 

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7 years ago

Has anybody suggested the author of Oathbringer could be Szeth?

Committed terrible acts, has potential for redemption arc, dictated but not read as the closing remark…

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nods
7 years ago

@105 What if Kaladin not only protects the Listeners but makes them his squires. Are Windrunners only able to accept humans as squires or does it extend to other races like the Listeners? I’m leaning towards the latter in this case

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7 years ago

Other comments…

These chapters also made me really curious about Adolin’s birth mark on the back of his left tight. This got to be an important plot point for later on ;-)

I was also very interested in finding more about Alethi views on pre-marital sex: a lot of people on the fandom have theorize Adolin is some sort of highly experienced sex machine due to the sheer number of his conquests. These chapters more or less tell us it isn’t proper for young lighteyed to mate before they are married, so this puts an end to this one, at least as far as I am personally concerned.

I don’t think Adolin being born under the sign of nine bears any significance: an individual birth date is not relevant. 10% of the population is also born under the sign of nine, so really this isn’t foreshadowing for some nefarious plot twist. It might however be something Brandon dropped in to make readers speculate about.

I loved how Shallan described passionate Adolin and I loved she got to see this side of him: so many people take Adolin for an empty head, so it was great to see talk about something he truly cares a lot about. I loved how she said Adolin’s speech on Shardblades was mystical and I feel he will help her learn to accept Pattern the Blade.

I did not read Shallan needing another personality to yield the Blade as an issue: I saw it as part of her acceptance processus. I think she currently need it, but I also think Adolin’s deep love of Shardblades will help her move past her trauma.

I was also pleased Pattern seems to like Adolin unlike Syl who hates him.

For those who argue Adolin and Shallan haven’t told their one secret, I would point out Shallan did not lie to Adolin about her order. She put him into confidence. Considering she is barely starting to acknowledge the truth about herself, it seems far-fetched to think she ought to have told Adolin, especially considerng how worried she is she will screw it up. This fear explains the behavior much better than any alternative explanation wanting her not to have told him because of her “connection” to Kaladin. Also, she didn’t tell the whole truth to Kaladin either.

Count me among those who think the secrets (the murders) will bring them closer and not further apart. While I still think there will come a time where they both will screw it up, the promise will come back. Oh I SO hope. Please pretty please Brandon!

I mean, I don’t want to get prematurily excited… but there has been quite a bit of stuff happening with Adolin’s Blade and how he views it… Just saying.

Something else, am I the only one who noted how Adolin infered Navani and Jasnah have been responsible for part of his upbringing? Now I wonder about mother because he was a teenager back then, so surely his tutoring started before that. I also found it interesting in learning Jasnah had a role to play in raising Adolin. Now I really want them to meet up again.

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 111 sharkbait – Have you read Warbreaker? Zahel and that sword go waaaaaaaaaay back…

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7 years ago

@110 I guess that makes sense.  I happen to remember learning it in high school but then again, I was really good at math…

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7 years ago

Ambly @65.  Eshoni’s warriors were trying to attract creationspren as a means of finding a different form.  However, in this aspect, they are an unreliable narrator.  They have their songs describing former forms.  However, there is much more knowledge that the Parshendi lack than they have.  It would be like having a simple description of water lilies and then trying to recreate an exac replica of one of Monet’s water lilies paintings.  Had they had more knowledge, they may have known to attract a more powerful spren than creationspren.

Isilel @70.  Excellent point about the meaning behind the phrase “just a sec.”

Sadeas was not alone.  He was with Ialai and other soldiers.  Ialai and some soldiers went down one path.  Sadeas was going to follow the remaining other soldiers down another path.  Just before leaving, he spotted Adolin.  Sadeas could not help himself and had to taunt Adolin.  One thing lead to another and Sadeas wound up dead.

SunDriedRainbow @78.  I took Shallan’s action as she initiated the kiss; not forced herself upon Adolin.  IIRC, Adolin certainly reciprocated the kiss.  Anthony Pero @90 beat me to the punch.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

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7 years ago

@102 Ellynne. I like the idea of Pattern figuring out the murders. I was surprised that Adolin brought the murder files for Shallan to look through. He knows she is smart, and must have considered that she might be able to figure it out. Little does he know the her spren can put clues together much quicker than any human.

Steve-son-son-Charles
Steve-son-son-Charles
7 years ago

I am starting to believe that the author of “Oathbringer” is Oathbringer itself, or more appropriately, the spren that is Oathbringer.

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Josh
7 years ago

Shen/Rlain seems to be an important foreshadow, not just of something old (Parshendi who weren’t “dumb”) but also of something new…I am excited to see how Kaladin and these new Parshendi interact!

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@111;

Beginner’s luck!

Oh, and also, WELCOME!

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@111:

Zahel did mention that he sometimes expects to hear the sword’s voice again, but he seemed awfully glad to be rid of it.

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 107 Ineedmorebooks. I wonder when Pattern says ‘I can die | I can go’ if he considers this to be the same thing, or two separate options. Syl has mentioned before that it’s possible to break the bond (relatively) peacefully and each go their separate ways. That seems much less extreme. If a spren and a human just don’t fit, or if in their case Shallan cannot forgive him, they can separate and try again with new people. However, due to the way he said it, I’m definitely a bit nervous that what Pattern means is that he’ll sacrifice himself and become a dead shardblade so Shallan can have a new cryptic.. :(

@@@@@ 114 Gepeto. I think Pattern doesn’t really like dead shardblades either, but cryptics on the whole seem to be very pragmatic about almost everything. ‘You don’t like me? Well we need you to be a radiant so I’ll go (die), and the cryptics will send another’. They would definitely look at the larger picture, and hold their personal opinion about shardblades to themselves. Shallan nearly killed Pattern, and denied his existence for years, and he still didn’t leave her, because of the cryptics’ larger goals (and his own academic curiosity). Maybe he would’ve discussed his opinion with Shallan (mmmm, bad), but their communication has been a bit rocky lately.

Syl, as an honorspren, is very individualistic and has very strict morals, and thus isn’t capable or willing to look at the larger picture before judging Adolin about this one specific thing. Either of these spren opinions will hopefully lead to interesting storylines, and I still hope Kaladin and Adolin will have the time in this book to continue their friendship

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Dan I
7 years ago

So something that just occurred to me: Shallan is, essentially, manifesting different personalities. We have 3 so far for sure:

Shallan herself

Veil

Brightness Radiant

You could also say each one of them is a reflection of herself…or perhaps a shadow of herself…

Now…how many shadows will she ultimately develop? Could it be…nine?

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7 years ago

Why do people keep speculating about the author? I think it is Jasnah and that’s it. Most of the time, the simplest explanation is the correct one.

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Axehoudlover
7 years ago

@119 I love that theory, however it seems odd that a spren would write a book for humans and refer to themselves as a heretic. However if the book is for other spren and Oathbringer is a heretic for the role it played in the brakeing of the nahel bond by the original KR then this theory works even better. Is it possible that Oathbringer (the book) is known only by spren. If Oathbringer is written in the future then Oathbringer may have been reawaken and returned from being “fallen” also shardblades are often described as mostly dead with just enough life in them to be summoned which could explain the quote about seeing both shadesmar and Roshar.

Anyway I think this could be a great theory although i also like the theory about Szeth being the author although my continued impule is that it is Jasnah and that the one who could see farther was Mr. T

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7 years ago

Eshonai bonded an Odium spren in a normal Highstorm. It makes sense that parshmen who don’t have an evil mindset can bond good spren in an Everstorm.

Shallan learned how to do the stance right by drawing it. That’s a convenient shortcut.

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sharkbait
7 years ago

@114 I share your same excitement with Adolin and his blade.  

@122  I missed that Zahel said he was awfully glad to be rid of the sword.  I do want to know how it passed to Nale’s hands.  I found it interesting that Szeth neither felt disgust at the blade nor did he lust after it.  Kinds seems like he had a clean slate to make himself a new man.

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7 years ago

Love the Adolin and Shallan chapters. Love Pattern being the the Chaperone. Just kept on giggling over “No Mating” and “dividing by zero” as inappropriate. 

I really can’t wait to get hold of the book. 

Thank you Brandon for these chapters. And again, I apologize for saying that you cannot write romances, because you really can. You can blow Danielle Steele and Nora Roberts out of the water if ever you cross over to that genre. But please stay with fantasy because I always look forward to all the books you publish.. :-)

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7 years ago

Andrew @83 – The announced plan is for all 32 chapters of Part 1 to be released, ending the week before the book release. The Interludes come between Parts, so… no, there is currently no promise to release any of them early. (It just so happens that Part 1 of Oathbringer has a lot more chapters than Part 1 of either TWoK or WoR.)

That said, I did hear a tiny rumor that maybe, possibly, perhaps the first Interlude might be released in audio format the day before the book release. Don’t know if it will happen or not, but that’s the closest you’re going to get.

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7 years ago

@130 – Alice, thanks for the info. I have Oathbringer on pre-order at Audible. It will be good to have a preview there too. :-

manavortex
7 years ago

@58,
Well I’m the guy that said it had to be Jasnah and anything else is a waste of time but yeah, I don’t see Jasnah spending that much time defending herself. She would get right to the point, opinions be damned.

I would have agreed, but after reading the whole thing in one piece I’m more inclined towards Eshonai. Especially the part with her whole youth pointing towards that. Also, Jasnah doesn’t fit the ominous “many thought I was dead, but i wasn’t, ba-dum-tss!” thing.

@64,
I am concerned with Shallan developing a personality who can deal with her trauma. I am very much afraid of a split personality disorder arising. Given we are already have autism and depression in viewpoint characters, it wouldn’t surprise me if she heads down that path.

I don’t think that she’d do that. Also, Renarin is not a viewpoint character yet. I’d be far less concerned for him if he was…
But reading Kaladin’s depression is almost as dreadful as being back in the chasm myself. Blergh!

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7 years ago

Absolutely love this quote:

“I’m not good with relationships, Shallan.”

“Is there anyone who actually is? I mean, is there really someone out there who looks at relationships and thinks, ‘You know what, I’ve got this’? Personally, I rather think we’re all collectively idiots about it.”

God’s honest truth there…

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7 years ago

Re: The epigraph authorship — One of the biggest twists in the Mistborn series was about who was the author of the epigraphs.  I do not have confidence in my ability to figure this out, but I do have guesses. 

Jasnah definitely fits, especially since it appears that she will be doing some very public feats of battle and magic, and she came out of the portal at the end of WoR with that sure statement about the Almighty being dead–as in she learned the reality of who the guy was and how Odium killed him, not just her agnostic lack of evidence from before.

The Szeth storyline kind of fits–he can write and there’s a good chance the Honorblades grant some access to Shadesmar, but he would have to reeeally evolve–or return to his previous state–to come off that calm and scholarly.

I can easily envision plot developments leading either Dalinar or Adolin to be the author of the book.  It would have to be some future version of Adolin after further novels as either a mighty but controversial Radiant or Odium champion, so maybe that doesn’t fit if it’s a current book.  Dalinar is already basically repudiating modern Vorinism, the ardents are angry after his wedding, and even a Desolation will take time to change culture and belief completely. 

The title is significant, so I think either Dalinar or the Sunbringer that previously held Oathbringer will end up being the author.

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

 Joshua Danes @43.

When one reads it in this format rather than a bit at a time, it does give a different atmosphere to the entire writing doesn’t it?
I would not have even thought it could be Taravangian, but now, I wonder.  
I guess this is the crazy part, where we all wonder who.  :)

I will say this much and not in any way to be disrespectful to anyone; don’t all mad men think they have a reason to do the inhumane things that have been done in the name of peace? 

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Brian
7 years ago

@119 I have been meaning for 2 weeks to set up an account and propose Oathbringer as the author, or possibly another shardblade spren honoring Oathbringer with the title – perhaps the spren of the last original Radiant? I like the idea of a spren writing an account for humans, explaining some things – an old spren like Oathbringer has surely been around humans long enough to understand how to speak to them. Maybe even feel an obligation to do so. Of course, this assumes that the shardblades are in some sort of limbo rather than fully dead.

My other authorship guess is Shallan, perhaps as Brightness Radiant.

I haven’t seen either possibility discussed before, but haven’t been able to read all the comments over the last few weeks.

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mike yellow
7 years ago

nice

 

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Jacon
7 years ago

Adolin’s and Shallan’s match is once again a red herring, the playful matters are good on the surface and that there is of course overtones of lust involved in this that Mr. Sanderson is doing a wonderful at portraying a certain that Love is often confused with Lust. Yet, there is more to a relationship and love than just mere lust or even playful moments, even as Shallan starts noting on some of these points about how he views women merely as peasants. 

There is also the issue of truth and connection, the chapters of the last book were Kaladin and Shallan survived the horrors of the Chasms and even shared moments of deep personal truths of what had broken them, is a deeper connection in the bond of mature love than what we see taking place between Shallan and Adolin in these moments. Its the same as Kasbal, as Sanderon references back to a past incident of similar circumstances and also foreshadowing as to what may happen with Adolin, as there was talk of other Dark Spren out there. 

Last is that even in the last book, you had for a moment were both Shallan thought of Kaladin for a moment and if I remember correctly Kaladin was thinking similar.  In this book already you had Syl hint at Kaladin about this matter as well. 

As far as Shallan’s development, Sanderson is doing a wonderful job with showing the symptoms of PTSD and how one copes with past Trauma as well. 

Overall these three Chapters were insightful in foreshadowing possible events to come. 

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7 years ago

@138 WOW, I read those chapters with Adolin and Shallan COMPLETELY different than you. I wasn’t seeing lust at all. Attraction and interest, certainly, but far from lust. I suspect even if Pattern (NO MATING) hadn’t been on guard their kiss wouldn’t have led to anything else at this point. Adolin is even teasing and tricking her into trying a bite of food he knew would get her “angry” at him. That is more schoolboy than suave playboy.

I think the Kaladin chapter, while short, has great significance. The Parshmen are NOT what everyone thought they would be. We have lots to speculate as to why they are different from the Parshendi, but as we saw, even they had some who could break away from Odium and (I hope) escape.

Can someone give me the reference of where Shallan mislead people about her type of Radiant and yet told Adolin. I don’t remember that at all.

 

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7 years ago

“You couldn’t balance a book on Veil’s head as she walked, but she’d happily balance one on your face after she knocked you unconscious.” *giggle*

I storming LOVE what Sanderson is doing with the Parshmen, Parshendi, and Voidbringers, and it just keeps getting better. This chapter was purely fantastic. I’m very eager to see what happens next.

To me, mating has long seemed nearly as incomprehensible and impossible as dividing by zero. :-(

: The amount of modern slang here stood out for me, too, especially “screwed.” Brandon isn’t a language purist like Tolkien, and that’s fine, but some of his language choices feel jarring.

 

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sharkbait
7 years ago

@139  See OB chapter 8

“Shallan gestured, and the scout led the way back down and across the plateau. Here, Shallan noticed that more than a few soldiers on the field had stopped their drills and were watching her. Bother. She would never again return to being just Shallan, the insignificant girl from a backwater town. She was now “Brightness Radiant,” ostensibly from the Order of Elsecallers. She’d persuaded Dalinar to pretend—in public, at least—that Shallan was from an order that couldn’t make illusions. She needed to keep that secret from spreading, or her effectiveness would be weakened.” 

and then from today

“This is an incredible talent, Shallan,” Adolin said, poking at the version of himself—which fuzzed, offering no resistance. He paused, then poked at Pattern, who shied back. “Why do you insist on hiding this, pretending that you’re a different order than you are?”

“Well,” she said, thinking fast and closing her hand, dismissing the image of Adolin. “I just think it might give us an edge. Sometimes secrets are important.”

So Adolins knows she’s a lightweaver and he knows that publicly she is touted as a different radiant class.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@139:

There is no reference for what you are asking. She told Dalinar to hide her real Order from the general populace, so she can be more effective.

And, we have her using Illusion in front of Adolin with the map.

Then we have this scene, so we can infer that Adolin has always been in the loop, rather than a dupe, like the general population.

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sharkbait
7 years ago

@139 From OB chapter 8

“She would never again return to being just Shallan, the insignificant girl from a backwater town. She was now “Brightness Radiant,” ostensibly from the Order of Elsecallers. She’d persuaded Dalinar to pretend—in public, at least—that Shallan was from an order that couldn’t make illusions. She needed to keep that secret from spreading, or her effectiveness would be weakened.”

 

and then from today

“This is an incredible talent, Shallan,” Adolin said, poking at the version of himself—which fuzzed, offering no resistance. He paused, then poked at Pattern, who shied back. “Why do you insist on hiding this, pretending that you’re a different order than you are?”

“Well,” she said, thinking fast and closing her hand, dismissing the image of Adolin. “I just think it might give us an edge. Sometimes secrets are important.”

 

So Adolin knows she’s a lightweaver and he knows publicly she is portrayed as an Elsecaller

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jacon
7 years ago

Lust is only concerned about superficial appearances and the appearances of a person, in many of the chapters that deal with Shallan and Adolin, this is the predominant matter as to why she is attracted to him, and him to her in the end, lust isn’t just sex.. 

Love is an intense feeling of affection toward another person. It’s a profound and caring attraction that forms emotional attachment. On the flip side, lust is a strong desire of a sexual nature that is based on physical attraction. Lust can transform into deep romantic love, but it usually takes time.

This is what Brandon is doing with this, Lust is immature and only about surface matters, while Love is mature, as Love isn’t just “feeling” as well, it similar to Honor, it is a way of being, not a way of feeling that is formed on an Emotional Connection, what emotoinal connection do Shallan and Adolin share, besides the lustful attraction. What emotional Connection do Kaladin and Shallan share, having spent a day and half relying on the other for survival? 

I was also going to add that much of Adolin’s interactions that we pickup from woman have always been from his point of view as to why the woman left him. There is a Pattern, that Shallan is picking up on that we the reader is starting to see to take place if you notice, his looking at a Woman’s backside, Him accusing Kaladin of doing that with her, when he is the one doing it. We see him ignoring and not listening to her, and his searching for something that actually “emotionally” connects them, hence his bringing up the Shard Blade, as that is something that “connects” them, besides being light eyes and the physical attraction.

In all of this, Adolin, from his perspective that we the reader only got to hear from other characters and his comments concerning as to why the other women got mad at him had to do with his continual flirtations it seems or looking at other women. Furthermore, the way he views women and treats Shallan, as she even brought it up, as well as not listening to her, she let the matter drop, when he pushed aside her saying that Shard Blades were once living blades, all the while witnessing himself that her blade was a spren, but he didn’t think a sword could be a live. In some cases, that there is also a hint as to how he treats and views women, the same way he does his sword, something that isn’t alive or has a life, something to be admired and used for his benefit and to show off. In all of his chapters that comment about the women, he can’t fathom as to why the women are upset with him, and that he isn’t the problem in the end. 

He didn’t pick up on her lack of Enthusiasm and allowed his own enthusiasm at this, by interrupting and not allowing her to finish, in his looking for that “emotional” connection that is actually love. There is one consistent matter that Shallan has brought up, that she will not be caged again, at least not in the way she was by her father, even though she is creating her own form of imprisonment doing Disassociative Identity Disorder. That she has enjoyed her freedom to much, and the fact that she is now a Radiant, and is actually has more power in some cases than Adolin, the man who is used to being in power and control, well think about it, were is his place in the world now, with this shifting of power? A woman with a Blade? Well it’s like bridge boy having one?  

There is also the fact that Sanderson brought up about Kasbal, reminding the reader as to how that happened as well, as it was a similar pattern also in that in the way Shallan was feeling and what she was thinking, when she was with him as well, about his eyes, or about his lips, or about his hair. That is lust or “physical” attraction as that happens to us all the time as well, unfortunately, with out an emotional connection   

Also the overall theme of the Series is about Unity, there is a great deal of prejudices that are taking place, and in order for Unity to happen, these prejudices will have to be overcome. Afterall, I will Protect even those that I hate…..can lead to loving those who you hated before. 

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7 years ago

@138: I am surprised at reading people still arguing there is nothing meaningful within the Adolin/Shallan relationship. I felt those chapters completely dispel many arguments people have had in the past, the ones wanting Shallan to not really care about Adolin pass his physical appearance and the ones wanting Adolin to intellectually too inferior for Shallan.

I felt both points were dully broached. Shallan does like Adolin, she is flattered he likes her and seems to genuinely want to pursue her relationship with him for no other reason then her wanting it to. There was no hint of “need”: she seems genuinely happy to be with Adolin and to share moments with him. Adolin isn’t the mindless idiot many have described: he has knowledge outside the battles and while he claims knowledge sunk in despite his best efforts, he does state the books he brought are the ones he actually found interesting to read. So it wasn’t all forced learning.

I strongly disagree Kaladin and Shallan’s chasm adventure showed a deeper connection: two people about to die will often feel the need to empty their heart. So yes, they shared a few personal truths. I will however state neither told the entire truth. I will also argue Adolin and Shallan have spoken truths one to another, just not the same ones. All in all, the major difference is Shallan and Adolin seems to actually like being one around the other. Both are also telling us, the readers, they want the relationship to work. I take their words for it as no matter what readers may think happened in the chasm or not, what truly matters is whom those kids want to be. Those chapters made it quite clear both Adolin and Shallan wanted to be together. 

I have grown more convinced, after reading those chapters, they will find ways to tell their deepest secrets and if it may mark a bump into the relationship, they did swear they will not screw it up. And I believed them.

@145: Honestly, I started reading your post, but I stopped midway. If you are truly arguing Adolin is mistreating Shallan, is not listening to Shallan, is mistreating his Blade (when he explicitly states he always knew it was alive), is acting with women as if they were propriety, then I have no argument to offer you. Your perspective is so diametrically opposite from mine and you seem to be reading elements into the story I feel do not exist, there is honestly nothing to say which will convince you of the opposite.

I will however say I read none of what you are advancing. I read two young people happy to be together, but fearful they might ruin it. I read two people who are at ease enough to transcend male/female traditional roles and if Shallan is reluctant, it has nothing to do with Adolin and everything to do with her mind block. She however agrees it needs to be done. My perspective is Adolin is helping her, not hindering her.

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Doomsy
7 years ago

Pretty sure they are Alethi dressed as Voidbringers. They just seem so off.

Also

NO MATING!

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7 years ago

Ok, I’m not sure what my favorite quote is yet and we’re not far into the book yet. “YOU. WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF OATHS?” Was great. But then we get “inappropriate? You mean like dividing by zero?” And “No mating!” Sorry “I am a stick!” But Oathbringer is bringing us such jewels! 

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7 years ago

I really enjoy these chapters showing Adolin and Shallans relationships slowly progressing.  I REALLY hope there promise to make it work isn’t a set up /foreshadowing of Shallan/Kaladin hooking up. Ugh!

@145 I appreciate how thorough you were 8m siting examples to go along with your opinions. However despite this I had a hard time reading/understanding your post. @146 summed up my sentiments. My view on Adolin and Shallan is so completely different from yours I can’t even see the points you are trying to make (despite effort to understand). :(

Love the dividing  by zero! Ha! 

I see Shallans “multiple identity” way if coping as unhealthy (not necessarily any more unhealthy than her other coping strategies)  but effective for her to progress. This allows her the strength to start accepting her blade and using her best sttengths as a radiant, that of transformation by combining truths and lies, to become a woman who is not crippled by pain.

Yellow spren?? Hmmm… I look forward to learning more about this.

Love that Kal surrendered. 

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7 years ago

@147: I hope not. It would be sad if Kaladin started realizing the ‘enemy’ creatures were people, and then these people turned out not to be those creatures. But the plot doesn’t care what I hope. And it would be realistic for humans to take advantage of the crisis in such a manner.

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WalkerCalvert
7 years ago

Holy crab! The parshmen have to choose! No one in the last book became a voidbringer without first choosing to accept the spren! These guys are just gonna be… Guys! 

 

And also, I have a paranoid suspicion that “voidbringer” really just means someone working with Odium. Whether that means the equivalent of a Radiant bonded to an evil spren, just some asshole, or an evil Listener who’s all summoning storms and such. Would explain a throwaway line about that one order of Knights finding”dustbringer” offensive cause it sounds like “voidbringer.”

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Blessed
7 years ago

@74 In WOR, the spren around Eshonai after she had changed to stormform was described as ‘cometlike’, but where was no mention of its colour.

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7 years ago

Good job, Pattern. Good job.

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7 years ago

@145 Jacon – Wow! where did you get that definition of lust? 

The dictionary definition of lust is “1) intense or unrestrained sexual craving, or 2) an overwhelming desire or craving.” The Bible speaks of lust in several ways. Exodus 20:14, 17 (NLT), “Do not commit adultery. . . Do not covet your neighbor’s house. Do not covet your neighbor’s wife, male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else your neighbor owns.”

Job  31:11-12 (NLT) sums up lust quite nicely: “For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell. It would wipe out everything I own.”

I don’t see what you see. I see the Shallan/Adolin interaction as the first blush of young love. After all, Shallan is only 17 going on 18 (Maybe she is 18 now) and Adolin is 22 going on 23. 

The interaction they had is PG 13. I won’t even Rate it T for Teens. Just, PG 13. 

So, let us just agree to disagree on this one because I cannot say that those two chapters are full of lust. I see it as full of interaction between two people who are just learning more about each other. 

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SeMaiLiSmaDi
7 years ago

As more chapters are released, i can’t help but think… i have read a third of this novel already? or how many chapters oathbringer have? I’m so impatient to read them all but only realised that i have read quite a lot over these past few weeks

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7 years ago

@145

What I see in Adolin is an attempt to transcend the superficial and forge a bond with someone he likes and is genuinely attracted to. Brandon doesn’t do “love at first sight”. He does realistic relationship progression. Both he and Shallan have had difficulties in past relationships, Shallan from inexperience and Adolin for lack of compatible matches. They both have issues and problems beyond getting laid. For Adolin he is desperately trying to show his worth to a woman he now sees as near mythical, a half-goddess in his words. Shallan is desperately seeking to have a mate that won’t treat her like a Ming Vase to be locked away and admired in a storeroom. I see in them, in that scene, a seed of what very well may turn out to be love. I see a promising start. After 3 to 4 months of acquaintance it’s really the most one could ask for.

As for Shallan and her split personality coping mechanisms, while unhealthy it’s better than her previous willful amnesia coping mechanisms. She is healing, slowly but surely. We even see progress as some of Shallan bleeds into her Brightness Radient persona. Her aspects only start off distinct. Seems to me the longer she holds them the more they bleed into each other. Gives me hope that one day she will be a complete person.

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7 years ago

SeMaiLiSmaDi @155 – so far, you’ve read about 1/8 of the book. Part 1, which is being released in this serialized form, is 32 chapters long; the entire book is well over 100 chapters. By page count, Part 1 is roughly 1/4 of the book. You’ll still have plenty to read come November. 

Braid_Tug
7 years ago

@155, SeMai:  Tor is releasing all of Part 1. At the end of Part 1, you will have read about 25% of the book.

There are over 120 chapters. So only about 13% of the book is out currently.

Edit:

@156, wetlander-  Jinks!  We posted almost At the same time.  :-D

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Andy
7 years ago

I think there’s something to the fact that both Syl and Pattern are getting interested in sex. Wasn’t everyone speculating last week that Syl would have baby spren that would become shardplate? Seems fitting that Shallan would bring up not knowing where shardplate comes from right on the heels of Syl and Pattern getting interested in acitivities that might make spren babies… Food for thought.

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JustanNPC
7 years ago

Just a few thoughts- I’m sure most of them will be repeats of what others have said, but I want to get them out. 

Firstly, Shallan and Adolin are adorable. Really, truly. And Shallan refusing to consider Adolin’s idea that the murders could be separate just makes me want to facepalm.

I remember seeing theories that the voidbringers everyone was referring to were really the escaped parshmen. I have mixed feelings about this idea. On the one hand, I don’t think voidbringers can bond with spren. I don’t have anything to back that up, just my own feelings.  On the other hand, if they weren’t transformed, why do they seem to remember so little of who they are? So, while I don’t yet know what to make of Kaladin’s chapter ( apart from being somewhat upset about it being so short), it gives a lot to think about for being such a little section. Maybe it serves as hope that Parshpeople can break free of the transformation? Also, I love the spren alarm. Specifically the fact that it doesn’t say something like, ” Hey, you’re being watched. ” But just freaks out and shouts, “ALARM!!!”

Pattern and his “no mating” is wonderful. And his dividing by zero is even better. Also, how does Adolin not think that Shallan saying,  “Shallan drew you a lot.” or something like that, is not extraordinarily weird? 

And now to the part that has ripped my heart in two. Pattern being willing to DIE so that Shallan doesn’t have to live with the constant reminder of what she did. Augh! My love for Pattern just grew exponentially, honestly. And every time I think about Pattern dying for Shallan it hurts my heart. I don’t think I can put into words the ache I felt while reading that part. The end. 

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7 years ago

There was description differences of parshmen  white and red  and  Relain black and red.  So are those differences why the parshmen didn’t change in the everstorm and do not have rhythms

 

 

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Blessed
7 years ago

@161 From what I read so far, the parshmen did change! But looks like this group didn’t change to the stormform introduced in WOR. In WOR, there’s a special spren that comes from Odium that bonds with parshmen to change them to stormform with red eyes.

My guess is that somehow the everstorm that blew across alethkar did not carry enough of this spren to change all of them, or somehow another kind of spren bonded to this group. That’s why their appearances have changed. From what I read of Kal’s chapters, they don’t look like they’re in slaveform, and Kal ruled out warform.

My opinion is it seems to be a new form.

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guy
7 years ago

@161

Parshmen/Parshendi are all varying patterns of white and black and red.

 

My current theory is that the Everstorm triggered a massive Parshman transformation into assorted forms, but there’s a strictly limited supply of Hatespren and company; the grain theft involved a large number of attackers but only a few had red eyes, which are apparently Odium’s thing. So all these ex-parshmen are in Smithform or something, and there’s a handful in Stormform or other Odium-powered forms taking charge. The rest of them are basically regular people, and the ones possessed by Odium are probably planning to get the humans to panic and commit a massacre to motivate the rest of the regular ones to act in self-defense or revenge. A mirror of the Vengence Pact would be a poetic way for the full war to start.

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BirD🐦
7 years ago

Needed to stop reading to post…

“Inappropriate?” Pattern said. “Such as… dividing by zero?”

I laughed out so loud. Other people in the train look at me as if I’m crazy. 😁 

Also, as a long time lurker I want to tell you that I love reading all your posts – even or especially the musespren’s musings 😜. Thank you all so much for sharing!

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Shippywars
7 years ago

The ‘sign of the nine’: 9 = Tanat, gemstone: topaz, essence: talus, body focus: bone, soulcasting: rock & stone, divine attributes dependable/resourceful. Also, from coppermind:

“Taln’s Scar is a celestial object visible from Roshar and is one of the most striking features in Roshar’s night sky. It is a swatch of stars that glow a deep red in contrast to the twinkling white stars across the rest of the sky. Its position on one’s seventh birthday is relevant in Rosharan astrology.”

There’s also this from WoK ch33 (Shallan discussing personality with Kabsal):

“‘I don’t know,’ she said with a shrug. ‘I’ve had people tell me they could determine my personality based on the day I was born, or by the position of Taln’s Scar on my seventh birthday, …”

My feeling is that Adolin being born under the ‘sign of the nine’ is a red herring, cultural/world building astrology.

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SeMaiLiSMaDi
7 years ago

@157 wetlandernw

@158 braid_tug

Thanks for the assurance. I’m worried it will be over in a flash. And the next wait will be another three years…

 

And obviously, both of you are a fan of Wheel of Time or there will be no wetlander or braid tugging there…

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Shantanu Roy
7 years ago

“my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine” – is this a general saying in Alethi or is this specific to Adolin and thereby a foreshadowing of Adolin as the enemy’s champion with 9 shadows.

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Chavdar
7 years ago

Maybe Adolin will confess to Shallan … and in order to progress she has to “tell one more truth” – ie turn him in

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Euphrasie
7 years ago

I like the parallelism of Oathbringer being another ancient text like the first two. 

Of course, I also like the idea of Jasnah writing a companion biography of Dalinar to go with her biography of Gavilar. Do we know the title of that biography? I couldn’t find it. We have “Gavilar’s Account,” but I got the impression that was only Gavilar’s dictation with her subscript notes written before his death, and that the biography was a separate volume written after his death. All this to say, Oathbringer would be a good title for a book about Dalinar, both because of his history with the blade and his future as a literal oathbringer.

One other note: I found dividing by zero particularly funny because I’ve been rereading the Arcanum Unbounded while waiting between Tuesdays, and there’s a reference in the Allomancer Jak notations to ‘dividing by a null set.’ Getting both references in the same day was a happy serendipity!

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7 years ago

@72: Yeah, Brandon really has a thing for writing Happily Arranged Marriages, more than anyone else whose work I’ve read. I don’t have much of an opinion in the shipping war here, largely because I enviously dislike most depictions of happy romance (though a few of the Misborn ones are exceptions), but I won’t be surprised if Shallan and Adolin stay happily together. 

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Euphrasie
7 years ago

One other thought before I forget: it’s not a huge stretch to believe the card game rules were originally based on interactions with the Radiants, right? Squires can’t capture except when one card touches another…? I wonder what the name of the game is

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7 years ago

@160: It isn’t Shallan refuses to consider Adolin’s idea, it is more she feels there isn’t enough evidence to conclude it was the case. She thinks Adolin is stuck on the idea because he likes the theory, not because the evidence is conclusive. And she is right, based on what she knows: they ought to keep their option open.

I personally found it adorable she found endearing that Adolin wouldn’t let go of a theory he liked even if the truth is he actually knows the truth.

@166: Thanks this was very informative. My thoughts are we shouldn’t read too much into it: Adolin being born in a specific month isn’t a foreshadowing of his future. It merely is a piece of information Brandon dropped it because he knew readers would read too much into it.

What I am more interested in is which month of the year is it? In other words, when is his Adolin’s birthday? This should give us a clue.

@169: Shallan’s truths are about herself, not others.

@171: Brandon did say he liked conflict within relationships. I did think Adolin and Shallan holding hands promising to never screw it up bore the promise they will screw it up. Now I am just hoping those kids will remember their words and move past whichever hardship is incredibly likely to come their way. I thus do not think it will merely be Adolion and Shallan being happy together.

We are reading the calm before the tempest… Adolin is way too calm… He thinks he got away with it, he thinks nothing can tie him to the murder. He wants to forget it happened, to forget he did it: in this regards he isn’t so different than Shallan. But it will come out sooner or later and when it does, the waves will rise, the storm will blow and our love-birds may be split apart. While Shallan has shown us she was familiar with water, Adolin did not know what “treating water” meant: will he learn to swim fast enough not to drown?

I think the story is about to take a sharp turn.

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Adam Chestnut
7 years ago

I’m old and out of touch, I suppose.  I’ve done some small amount of searching and have found 0 answers, so can someone please explain….WTF is this “hunny” nonsense?

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7 years ago

@164 guy, this comment you made:

Parshmen/Parshendi are all varying patterns of white and black and red.

reminded me of this death rattle from WOK:

Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.

What if this is a group of radiants fighting, or perhaps (even better in my mind) protecting, a large group of Parshendi? I think a large army or crowd of people all closely packed together could be interpreted as a “wall.”

Regarding the Adolin and Shallan discussion. While they were completely sweet and adorable in these chapters, I found this quote ominous:

“Neither of us is going to mess this up,” she said to him, squeezing his hand. “Despite what might at times seem like our best efforts otherwise.”

“Promise?” he asked.

“I promise. Let’s look at this notebook of yours and see what it says about our murderer.”

The fact that the murder is mentioned here makes me concerned that things will go sideways for them when the truth about the murder comes out. Perhaps Adolin is punished in a way that separates them, perhaps because of some loss of trust, or some other circumstance that we can’t foresee. I try to be an optimist, but when I see things looking too cute and perfect in a story, it makes me dread what horrors lie just around the corner. I hope it is nothing too traumatizing because I like all parties involved and don’t want to see them suffer too much.

Edit: @174: the “hunny” is any post number at the even hundreds: 100, 200, etc. I think it began as a joke on Wheel of Time reread threads (that’s where I first saw it.) I was very excited to get my first hunny in one of the earlier Oathbringer threads, woohoo.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@151:

I think the Voidbringers are the red lightning spren we see in Dalinar’s flashbacks, as well as in the Highstorms leading up to the Everstorm.

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7 years ago

@Out-of-Touch Old-Timer: 174

I am with you and had no idea what a “hunny” was a couple weeks back.  I have since learned that the person that writes the 100th comment (and multiples of 100) gets the “hunny”….It’s a very exclusive and prestigious group. 

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Adam Chestnut@174:

RE: The Hunny

By my recollection, it started as the “hundy”, or some variation thereof, on the WoT Re-read thread. I “think” it was started by Subwoofer, as a reaction to the Mods cracking down on “First!” posts. Why in the world anyone would crack down on “First!” posts was always a mystery to me. So, we sort of moved it to the 100th post. Back in those days, there were very few threads that actually made it to 100 comments on this site. The WoT posts consistently did, and often made it to 200 and 300.

At some point (within the first few months of usage), it became the “Honey.” I assume, because it was so highly sought after. Then, a later shift to the use of “hunny”, and its Winnie the Pooh connotation, became standard. Rules were codified (not really, lol), and it became illegal to double post to achieve the Hunny.

Thus ends this probably inaccurate oral (erm, written) history of the usage of the colloquial Hunny on Tor.com

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7 years ago

I haven’t reread the other books in a while, but does it seem like Shallan’s quips are increasing in frequency? I usually like them, even if some are eyeroll worthy, but I can see how they too are a defense mechanism, more subtle than the deliberately amnesia or reckless adventuring and now the new personality disassociation, but one she depends on and that will grow worse now that she’s had to speak a truth to Pattern. She was even sassy to Dalinar in an earlier chapter which indicates a certain recklessness. I love a well-placed smart-ass comment, but I think if I were around someone as constantly sassy as she is I’d start to get irritated.  So far it seems Adolin either likes it, or doesn’t mind it anyway, or finds it new and refreshing, but I can see it growing to grate on him too. I do think he actually is perceptive enough to realize it’s a thing she does to distance herself from serious truths. 

So far, I am happy to see Shallan describing just feeling warm to be in happy company with Adolin. That right there is a good sign for her sanity and potential to take good things from a relationship with him, as she really is so alone and broken.  I get a little tired of shipping wars because I wonder if someone as broken as Shallan really can or should be in a relationship with anybody, but I care about her so I like to see her finding warmth.( She also described some contentment with Jasnah so I hope she  a is reunited with her mentor, it could also be healing for her.) There are lots of secrets and darkness that will definitely complicate things and it’s agony to wait to find out how, I agree that Brandon does “Happy arranged marriage*” a lot so it makes you wonder if this is the trend, or the outlier? Or something different and in between?

*But even in previous works it wasn’t often quite that straightforward. 

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7 years ago

Maybe it’s just me. I haven’t noticed anyone else saying anything. But I can’t wait for Shallan to end up with Kaladin. Adolin has already committed murder and even though I like him I don’t think he’s the one who will end up with Shallan, especially with her being already bonded to an Honor  spren. And they do have some serious chemistry going on.

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JustanNPC
7 years ago

@180

But Shallan isn’t bonded to an honorspren. Pattern is a cryptic. I won’t be overly upset or anything if she ends up being with Kaladin, cause Kaladin’s great. But, I am partial to Adolin in this regard. I don’t see why him having committed murder is what makes you certain the relationship will end- Shallan has too. They’ll either work through it and grow, or drift apart-it doesn’t automatically become the latter though, in my mind. 

@173

Perhaps “refuse” was a strong word on my part. “Easily dismissed” may be closer to what I’m going for.  Regardless, while I agree it was cute, it also made me shake my head on poor Adolin’s behalf. 

@175

That’s an awesome connection between the coloring and that death rattle! I’m going to have to reread those. 

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7 years ago

You are right:  she’s not bonded to an Honor spren.  My bad.  And a good point too that Shallan has also committed murder, although her motivations were very different.  Once she was defending herself, .and once protecting her brothers.   Adolin was simply furious.  But what made me feel like Shallan and Kaladin end up together is the fact that she has kept forcing herself to stop  thinking about the passion that Kaladin has, and told herself to be satisfied with Adolin.  That’s why I say there’s so much chemistry there.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

lauriochay@182:

Sadeas smiled, and Adolin saw the truth. No, he didn’t believe this, but it was the lie he would tell. He would start the whisperings again, trying to undermine Dalinar.

“Why?” Adolin asked, stepping up to him. “Why are you like this, Sadeas?”

“Because,” Sadeas said with a sigh, “it has to happen. You can’t have an army with two generals, son. Your father and I, we’re two old whitespines who both want a kingdom. It’s him or me. We’ve been pointed that way since Gavilar died.”

“It doesn’t have to be that way.”

“It does. Your father will never trust me again, Adolin, and you know it.” Sadeas’s face darkened. “I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.”

Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped.

While Adolin does become enraged, he does not choose to murder Sadeas because he is “simply furious”. He realizes that Sadeas will still try to kill his father. It pisses him off, sure, but his motives are exactly the same as Shallan’s; to protect his family. When Shallan murdered her mother, her life was in immediate danger. When she murdered her father, her brothers lives were not in immediate danger. She just decided in that moment that it would never end, her father would never come back to them, and he would eventually kill one of them. Then, she enacted a murder that she had premeditated. It was the reason she carried the leaves her brother had given her for months and months.

What Shallan did, in our legal system, is a higher crime than what Adolin did. I highly doubt Shallan will be casting any judgements against Adolin for his murder. For hiding it from her? Maybe.

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7 years ago

 @182

Adolin killed a man who threatened to kill him and his father and to destroy everything they stood for. A man who had allready attempted to do so and nearly succeeded. To say he “was simply furious” does not seem correct to me.

Or more to the point: Neither Shallan nor Adolin have committed murder.

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Drygdor
7 years ago

Anthony Pero @183

My thoughts exactly. I don’t think it is in Shallan’s character to be so hypocritical as to judge Adolin for committing murder, but I could see problems arising because he didn’t see fit to tell her the truth about a murder case they’re both working on. Trust is one of the most important parts of a healthy relationship and while I’m not saying it’s definitely going to be a deal breaker for these two, it could cause issues. As I’ve said before, I’m not biased and I’ll let the writing do its job when it comes to the story itself. 

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7 years ago

@182: I will admit I am amazed to see some still arguing there is a deeper more meaningful connection in between Kaladin and Shallan than there is in between Adolin and Shallan. I quite frankly did not read it this way.

I also do not understand where, within the chapters we have read, you feel Shallan is pushing away her “passion for Kaladin” just to merely content herself with Adolin? Where has Shallan even expressed those thoughts? Because of this ONE comment she had, back in WoR, where she mentioned Kaladin was intense and brillant? Back before she even got to know passionate, intense and book smart Adolin?

I mean, had Shallan think of Kaladin, once, during those chapters, had her train of thought fell once onto him once, then maybe I would concede that maybe she isn’t being entirely honest with her desire to pursue the relationship with Adolin.

It however didn’t happen. Shallan tells us she genuinely wants to be with Adolin. She is genuinely alarmed when he voices the idea their relationship may not progress to full betrothal because he fears HE will screw it up. I read nothing else but two young people wanting to form a relationship with each other, but fearing they would inadvertently do something to ruin it, despite their best intentions. I thought them sharing those thoughts made them share the burden whereas before they each thought, if it fell, it’d be on them personally.

Does relationship need more than having to willing individuals wanting to work for it, to develop it and to make it work?

My thoughts also are those chapters dispel most of the negative commentaries the Adolin and Shallan relationship got in the past. Yes, Adolin is smart enough to keep up with Shallan and no he is not a mindless simpleton. Yes, he knows stuff other than fighting and it turns out this stuff actually interests Shallan. Yes, they do have something in common: they are both passionate individuals loving their respective craft. They recognize this in each other and it allows them to bond.  The fact they are willing to break down conventions together also gives them a complicity we haven’t seen them develop with other people.

Thus, I really do not get why you feel Shallan is contending herself with the “lesser choice” nor where it is stated she carries a “passion for Kaladin”. The Shallan I read carries a very strong affection for Adolin and this strong affection, I think it is really starting to read like love.

And yes, Shallan is ill-placed to hold it onto Adolin for having murdered Sadeas. I think they will both understand each other, if events allow them the chance to talk to each other. It may be they won’t.

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7 years ago

I personally think Adolin’s motive was more the brashness and anger of youth,  however we can agree to disagree on that.  But surely you have seen the yearning Shallan and Kaladin try to keep squashed down and hidden, even from themselves?  I like Adolin, and think they are cute together, but I think there will be grave consequences for what he did.  And I think the passion between Kaladin and Shallan will ultimately draw them together.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@185:

Well, certainly in a real relationship, these kinds of things pop up all the time (although, usually not revolving around both parties being murderers, lol). The ability to forgive, and then work through your partner doing something idiotic is a requirement for a successful marriage. 

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@186, 187:

I agree that there seems to be a more primal connection between Kaladin and Shallan. But that doesn’t make it a healthy connection. It can frequently be the opposite, and that may be where the story goes. What there is no doubt of, in my mind, is that we are headed towards a love triangle. And I’m interested to see Brandon’s take on it, because so far, he hasn’t written a classic relationship triangle that I can remember.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@187, RE: Adolin’s motivations.

They are spelled out in the passage I quoted. There’s no need to guess about them.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Kak-thurak@184:

I don’t know about in Vorin society, but in the United States, both Adolin and Shallan would be charged with murder, and if the facts as presented to us were presented to a jury, they would be convicted of murder. Shallan could be charged with 1st degree murder, but would likely only be charged with 2nd Degree, because of her mitigating circumstances. She was also a minor, so might not do any prison time.

Adolin would be charged with second degree murder, and would go to prison.

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Jonah
7 years ago

Ship, ship, ship. I love ALL the Ships!
I hope Brightness Radiant helps Shallan find herself. I hope it doesn’t turn into another personality. (Pattern don’t die and let her do that! Stay with her and keep her sane!) I like the comment about Shallan making “Shadows” with these projections of herself and maybe she could be the Nine Shadows of Odium. Mmmmm Interesting….

I had interpreted the Nine Shadows to actually be nine different people or beings to offset the Knights Radiants. How many Knights will there be? Ten? So then Nine Shadows to bring balance, yin and yang, equal and opposite forces. But I’m open to what may come.

I still feel we’re not getting the true final copy in these prerelease chapters. The flow seems off to me. Chapter 10 and 13 could be one chapter and chapter 11 could be the end of the last chapter we had of Kaladin flying around with Syl. It’s not actually a short chapter, just a part of another chapter. Maybe TOR is mixing it up just a bit for this serialization?

But then I saw the comments that we’re getting Part One. That there are over 120 chapters to the whole book. I didn’t realize this. I was thinking, “Why would TOR publish for free online? Don’t they want to make money?” But now I understand it’s not the whole book. (Sure, most on this thread would buy the book anyway, but TOR wants to sell more than 500 books, more than the amount of comments on threads. If the book was online for free, most of the world wouldn’t buy it.) I’m still a skeptic and wonder how different Part One will be in the actual publication.

So, 120 chapters. Damn. It will take more than a weekend for me to read that! I’ll seriously have to get a room and tell my family to take care of themselves. Sorry! Mom’s on vacation! 😇 I have to finish it before Thanksgiving or we’ll be eating a reduced feast. Or I’ll end up burning the turkey leaving it too long in the oven because I can’t put the book aside. Dried out potatoes. Mushy green beans. Accidentally adding salt instead of sugar to the pumpkin pie. It will be a disaster!!! 🤣

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7 years ago

I never thought Shallan would hold it against Adolin.  However I do think Dalinar will.  That’s what I meant about dire consequences.   Amd I guess people are just different and read in what they want to see.  My personal opinion is that Shallan will opt for passion, but you may be right: it may be unhealthy.  However, to address Gepeto’s comment, Shallon didn’t just remark that he was intense and brilliant.

“That was all right. She liked Adolin the way he was. He was kind, noble,  and genuine.  It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or… .or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.  Passionate, with an intense smoldering resolve.  A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it.  And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a high Lord. Instead, the secure stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were or what you did, you could not hurt him, could not change him. He was. Like the winds and rocks were.”

Shallan was so lost in thought and feeling, that she didn’t even hear what Adolin said.

Or that’s my take on it.  Like I said,  people are different and read different things into it. I wasn’t trying to argue, it’s just interesting and my take on it.  

 

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7 years ago

Shouldn’t you be saving some of those posts AP?

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7 years ago

@191

I really dont think so. Modern legal systems are based on the assumption that an authority exists that will ensure public order and prevent most crimes. This authority dos not exist in the books we are discussing. Sadeas is threatening Adolin directly and credibly. There is no higher authority he can turn to. Thus, he is forced to protect himself and acts in self defence. The same is more or less true for Shallan.

But even if you discount all this I am relativly sure that it would be considered “Totschlag” (roughly Manslaughter, but I am using the german term as they are not exactly the same) and not “Mord” (Murder). Obviously this might be slightly different for different legal systems.

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7 years ago

What interests me is 

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7 years ago

Okay, the website is glitching again. Back to the WoT days of writing in a word document and pasting here.

As I was saying before my comment was swallowed by the ethernets, what interests me is the assumption that the shipping war will result in Shallan picking Adolin or Kaladin. She could be so fractured by the end of all this, if she survives at all, that she chooses not to marry. Or one of her chooses not to marry and high tails it off with the rest of her

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7 years ago

Well you do have a point there lol!

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7 years ago

I had a thought that I found interesting (normally I find my thoughts boring, so this was novel for me:))  I remember a discussion in one of the previous chapters regarding the importance of who’s perspective you are currently in.  Imagine the scene as Shallan becomes Brightness Radiant if this chapter were written from Adolin’s perspective.  He might have noticed a bit of hesitation, but the text would have given us virtually no indication of just how difficult sparing with Adolin was for Shallan, nor the assuming of a new identity (although the referring to “Shallan” in the 3rd person would have been a good clue) 

It makes you wonder what internal motivation/thoughts are completely missed, because we the reader are currently sitting in the point of view characters head.

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7 years ago

@197

Also, all three of them are participating in a war against the evil monsters that want to bring the end of the world… Kaladin, Adolin and/or Shallan may well die. If Brandon continues to grow as an author he will most likely let some of these characters die… espeacially after the fake-death barrage of Words of Radiance.

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7 years ago

Shallan is also learning using her Radiant abilities. She will progress quickly as a fighter.

”I know Kung Fu.”

”Show me.”

She’s totally Matrix’ing it

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7 years ago

Ah, well done Kah’Thurak. Try not to lick your fingers in public though. Use a spoon or something

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Kah-Thurak@195:

In the United States Manslaughter implies there was no intention to kill. Adolin most definitely intended to kill Sadeas, but he didn’t premeditate it, which makes it 2nd Degree Murder. I know this because I read a lot of John Grisham ;)

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

CireNaes@194:

I don’t really save up posts to snipe the hunny. I just get lucky a lot. Not today, alas. Congrats on the double hunny Kah-Thurak!

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

To be honest, I don’t really see Shallan being too upset that he didn’t immediately confess to her that it was he who killed Sadeas – it’s an understandable thing to want to keep hidden and Shallan is no moral absolutist.

If Brandon Sanderson was a less subtle author I would be sure he was setting up Adolin to be killed off, or at least for Kaladin to be killed off just after Shallan rejects Adolin for him. But that sounds too blunt for Sanderson, although we can be pretty sure that some of the characters we like are going to die. I can’t wait for the full release, but then I’m just going to be longing for book 4…

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HaloJones
7 years ago

#193

“That was all right. She liked Adolin the way he was. He was kind, noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or… .or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there. Passionate, with an intense smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a high Lord. Instead, the secure stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were or what you did, you could not hurt him, could not change him. He was. Like the winds and rocks were.”

That passage can be read as either describing Kaladin or Adolin. I think she’s describing Adolin all the way through it. 

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7 years ago

 @203 Anthony Pero

Wikipedia may only be a little less dubious than Grisham, but I think that you are wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_(United_States_law):

Heat of Passion: A killing that occurs after provocation by an event which would cause a reasonable person to lose self-control. There must not be a cooling off period negating provocation. If there is an interval between the provocation and killing sufficient to allow the passion of a reasonable person to cool, the homicide is not manslaughter, but murder.[1]

 

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7 years ago

@206 I assume that everything after whatever Kaladin was, was talking about Kaladin.

It’s very interesting to hear you thought it was Adolin.

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guy
7 years ago

@175

After WoK, the interpretation of that death rattle on the 17th Shard forums was that it was the Heralds fighting during a Desolation, since Jasnah identified parshmen as Voidbringers. However, since they’re known to be associated with an Unmade, it seems more likely it’s a future event. And yeah, it could be defending parshmen from humans who want to kill them all as Voidbringers/potential Voidbringers.

 

I’m still convinced Voidbringers are transformed Parshmen, but probably only the ones with red eyes. That’s a reasonably consistent theme in the fragmentary descriptions, and Stormform seem Voidbringerish as all hell. Red lightning bolts (which incidentally cause Shardplate visors to automatically polarize to preserve the wearer’s vision), summoning the Everstorm, overriding the host’s will completely even for Eshonai, and finally the fact that Stormform!Eshonai was so arrogant and pissed off she undermined the plan by making it obvious to the Five that something was up. That strikes me as a very Odium character flaw.

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7 years ago

@191 AnthonyPero

Shallan’s mother was trying to kill her at the time, so any reasonable court would conclude that Shallan acted in direct self-defense.  Everyone is legally entitled to protect themselves. 

@195 Kah-thurak is right.  If there was a functioning legal system in Alethkar, Sadeas could be removed from his position for abandoning Dalinar and ordering the bridges removed so that his fellow highprince could not retreat.  Since there is no functional legal process for removing a highprince short of assassination or civil war, Adolin couldn’t simply gather evidence and bring charges.  He had to solve things in the proper, traditional Alethi manner, which involves lots of stabbing. 

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7 years ago

@210 dptullos,
Shallan killed her mother in self-defence alright, but I think Anthony was referring to the time she killed her father.
Also, He had to solve things in the proper, traditional Alethi manner, which involves lots of stabbing. *snickers* Yup. I always read it Adolin was acting in a moment of passion after Sadeas quite excplicitly said to his face that he will continue to destroy Adolin’s family. For me, it almost passes as self-defence, too. But that’s just me.

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7 years ago

My thoughts

1.  I’m still holding to my theory that the Preface author is Eshonai.  Although I do like the idea of it being written by a spren.

2.  I think Adolin and Shallan will work out well together.  But I am wondering if Shallan does develop full-on Dissociative Identity Disorder, will one of the other personalities develop something with Kaladin.  Being able to change your appearance and voice could make it very easy to carry on relationships with two people.

3. I’m guessing Kal’s Listeners were able to bond some non-Odium spren.  They might have been warned somehow by the group that ran away from Eshonai’s void-induced cleansing.  There was the planned highstorm that Eshonai created her large army, then the unplanned highstorm that the Stormfather sent and the Everstorm where they could transform.  Can Listener’s bond/capture a non-Odium spren in an Everstorm?  My guess is yes, but we’ll see.

4. I wonder how long we have to wait until we see Oathbringer (blade) again.  Is it still sitting there where Adolin dropped it?  

5. Also waiting to see Amaram, Moash, other Ghostbloods, and other Radiants.  Hopefully we aren’t stuck in the Stone of Tear Urithiru for half the book with small glimpses at Kaladin’s adventures.

 

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7 years ago

@206 and @208  

I also thought that was all a description of Kaladin.  I still do, but I can see it now as describing Adolin.  Very interesting the way it can be see in either way.

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StormItAllAgain
7 years ago

All the scenes of the desolations have included horrifying things like thunderclasts, the rock monster in the pure lake, and the midnight thingies that Dallinar fought. None of them show beings like parshendi in stormform??? Very beginning of WoK says “some human, some not” when talking about bodies scattered around and different colored bloods but that is about it. So now ww have seen what appear to be “nice” transformed parshmen, could it just be some of the listeners that act as the vehicle to “activate” the spren etc that bring out the rock monsters…. 

On another note, it’s fun to see Adolin and Shallan in their budding relationship, really captured the fun of developing those moments/feelings in real life. However, I thought it was pretty judgemental of Shallan to label Adolin as prejudiced against women for putting women and dark-eyes in the same group of “non-sword users” when in their society neither use swords… of course it is a paradigm shift… and good job Adolin for trying to embrace the shift.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Kah-Thurak@207:

There’s also the issue that the law (and the standard of what constitutes what) is subtly different from state to state here in the US. So, while something may not meet the threshold of murder as opposed to manslaughter for a case tried in Federal Court, that same case tried in, say, a Texas court, or a Florida court may not have the exact same thresholds. Either way, its very close. Intent, and how long that intent was in someone’s mind, matters a whole lot. And I hope it was obvious that I was trying to say I was no expert on the subject when I referenced Grisham, lol.

dptullos@210:

My comment @191 was a follow up to someone’s response to my comment @183, where I mention the specifics of both her murder of her mother and the murder of her father. The premeditated murder was the murder of her father.

 

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Chavdar
7 years ago

Why so many think that Shallan will be angry Adolin didn’t run to her and confess?

Had she told him about killing her mother and father?

I can imagine a scene where they both share the info… and then Shallan may be pressed to tell the truth however painful it could be – if the choice is lying who murdered Sadeas but killing Pattern in the process or truth and only the truth

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Tommy
7 years ago

 Question. Why haven’t we heard from the rest of the Davars yet? Why aren’t they reunited with Shallan?

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7 years ago

So, are some of you surmising that the spren OathBringer is still alive in the Shard Blade?

This is Dalinar’s book and yet he can no longer use/own OathBringer but he is now an Oathbringer himself. The fact that Sadeus even had the sword was awful and now it waits for discovery and that may be the clue that outs Adolin as the killer.

I do think the major focus of what Adolin did will be between him and Dalinar and not Shallan. As High King or High Prince he will be in a bad situation. Three quarters of the people may believe that a dead Sadeus is better than a living one but his widow will demand revenge justice and Dalinar’s code/oath will force him to respond.

 

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Ella-Lu
7 years ago

@72, I was thinking of Wax and Steris, too.  I think Adolin and Shallan complement each other better than Kaladin and Shallan would.  I think she could help keep him grounded, and he could help her be more light-hearted.  She and Kaladin are both intense and might not be as good for each other in a romantic relationship, though they could have a strong friendship (more like Wax and Marasai).  

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thatboi.kel
7 years ago

@217, Tommy, the last we learn in WoR is that Mraize has arranged travel from Jah Keved to Urithiru. Based on the descriptions of where they lived within Jah Kaved (very rural) and the description of the country as war torn. It is likely a significant trip to travel from/through Jah Kaved, to/through the Shattered Plains to reach the Oathgate. From the Oathgate to Urithiru is likely the easiest part of the trip so long as there are lit spheres available.

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7 years ago

Jonah @192 – One more time: The chapters being released here are EXACTLY the chapters you will see in the books (with the exception of odd copying artifacts such as missing letters). These chapters are not abridged in any way. This is how Brandon Sanderson chose to arrange the chapters in his final version.

Also: There are somewhere around 1235 pages in the book; we’re getting 308 of them here. Even if you discount the pages that are either blank or have nothing but the Part/Interlude titles, there are 1200 pages of text and illustrations. There’s plenty of book to last a while.

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Tyson
7 years ago

I believe the voidbringers are Odium’s spren.  Remember in Dalinar’s vision in the purelake when he saw the spren, and everybody freaked out when they found out it “brought a host.”

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

Celebrinnen @211.
One of the things I have noticed in reading all these comments about Shallan’s killing her parents is that if I remember correctly, when she killed her father, didn’t she believe that he had killed her mother?  Because how I remember it is that from her perspective, she remembers her father picking her up from the room and taking her away from where her mother and her mother’s friend were both killed.

I got the impression from the very first reading of the book that she believed her father had killed her mother and the person she thought was her mother’s lover.

She had not had her moment of truth with Pattern so it seems to me that possibly she felt like her father would end up killing all of her family.  We know he killed the step-mother as well, right?  
For me the scene where she kills her father is absolutely heart-wrenching.  I cry like a baby every time I have listened to the audiobook.
 
Then of course when we find out she killed her mom in self-defense and her father protected her, damn, that really is so sad.  I can’t begin to imagine the kind of guilt she must feel.  How can she know if she can trust her own judgement?  If she can’t trust her own judgement how can she trust anyone else’s judgement?  How can she know if who she is, is safe with anyone?    How can she truly love someone until all of this is resolved within her heart and mind?
Those are things I think about in relation to her relationships with others. I think we are going to see Shallan go through a lot of introspection and growth before she chooses any love relationship.  I just don’t see her choosing anyone any time soon as far as actually engaging fully into that kind of a relationship where trust is such an important factor.   

On Adolin killing Sadeas, it seems to me that since Sadeas told Adolin he was going to destroy Dalinar and his family and rule; Adolin is part of Dalinar’s family, so Adolin was protecting his family, and himself as well.  I would consider that to be self-defense, even if it was a crime of passion.

ImpatientKensai
ImpatientKensai
7 years ago

Lets say for a moment that there does end up being a “love triangle” between Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin (even though, from these chapters, I don’t think its going that way anymore.) 

I find it would be an interesting parallel between what Gavilar and Dalinar went through with Navani. It would be an example of history repeating itself, and it would provide a different kind of foreshadowing on where the relationships may be headed. 

I do, however, feel like there is going to be too much craziness going on with the new desolation to get too in-depth into a romance.  I’m glad that Shallan and Adolin can enjoy these moments while they last. Cause things are about to get crazy. 

Re murder and Adolin: If we are going to include manslaughter then I would agree that Adolin doesn’t fit that legal definition of murder. Sanderson emphasizes that specific moment when he looks at Sadeas for a time before attacking (cooling off period/giving time to think of attacking him. Manslaughter is that instantaneous attack with no thought just anger). Then when they are wrestling around and it looks like Sadeas has lost, Adolin continues to drive down the knife despite having the ability to stop the attack.

That having been said, RIP Sadeas I know I won’t be missing you, you piece of crem. 

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Brent
7 years ago

Someone mentioned Brandon not doing a love triangle before, i think he has.  Wax/Steris/Marasal.  With the obvious exception that the love triangle there is 2 women/1 man as opposed to here, the situations are very similar  Wax/M share a lot of interests/talents, whereas Wax and  Steris do not, but he ends up with Steris (btw, for those who haven’t read those books Steris and M are first cousins).  And I think the scene on the train where Wax and Steris discover a shared of Bookkeeping/Accounting (much to his surprise) is almost an exact replica of the scene here of Shallan learning how to fight.  And since that scene is where Wax truly starts to fall in love with Steris, I think this scene is where Shallan truly starts to fall in love with Adolin.

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7 years ago

@215 Anthony Pero

Yeah, I read that section wrong.  Sorry.  Shallan’s murder of her father wasn’t direct self-defense in the same way that killing her mother was, though she was defending her family from a man with a history of violence, and she had no recourse to the law. 

I don’t know if the law acknowledges the peculiar position of killers in a society where the police have no authority over their persecutor.  One accomplishment of a state legal system is to create an official mechanism of violence to replace private actors, but in the absence of that system, are private actors allowed to engage in premeditated violence?  If not, how are they supposed to protect themselves?  A state of legal powerlessness creates interesting moral questions.   

 

 

 

 

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7 years ago

@193: I maintain there is absolutely nothing within the chapters we have just read to indicate Shallan’s one time commentary about Kaladin was anything else but a… one time commentary. Yes, she said those things, but it remains, to this today, a leap of logic to assume it automatically implies she is arboring some deep secret passionate love for Kaladin. Of course, each reader’s millage may vary, but I have seen no firm nor solid indications it is indeed the case.

The most plausible explanation remains mere curiosity and if readers once thought it may imply some latent feelings towards Kaladin, I felt those last chapters dispeled the notion. Obviously, we cannot know what will happen at a later time, but we can say, at this current time, Shallan likes Adolin, loves Adolin even (her feelings towards Adolin do not strike me as lesser than Navani’s feelings for Dalinar or the reverse, she is certainly more passionate then both of them which may explain why I find them so boring as a couple), and genuinely wants to be with him.

There is absolutely nothing, within the last three chapters, which suggests Shallan has any romantic feelings whatsoever towards Kaladin.

I would also point out Shallan here thought of Adolin as a deeply passionate man about his craft which was something she related to. She loved seeing him this way and it was clear, from the segment, she never got to see this side of him before. I certainly read Adolin as a much more passionate individual than Kaladin, in a general manner, but opinions may differ.

Thus while it is not impossible for Shallan to eventually develop or want to entertain feelings with Kaladin, the recent developments tell us she genuinely currently want to be with Adolin. The feelings she has for him transcend mere physical attraction and they certainly are much stronger than anything she may or may not have felt towards Kaladin.

The complicity and the bonding she is also developing with Adolin is not faked, it is real and tangible. It also happened through normal means, through mere desire of wanting to be together and not the forced circumstances which basically had Kaladin and Shallan to spend time together.

I thought the relationship they are both currently building is tenfold stronger and meaningful then the one-time chasm adventure, but again, opinions may differ.

On Adolin murdering Sadeas: I do not judge him too harshly for it. He was put into a situation where he either allowed a despotic man to continue trying to harm his family and his people at a time where they cannot afford to waste energy fighting him or he took the matter into this own hands. Dalinar’s earlier comments indicate he never had the intention to deal with Sadeas: he still thought of him as potential ally which makes Adolin’s actions even more justificable. It is obvious by the narrative there was no other ways to deal with Sadeas.

On the reverse, it is also obvious Shallan and her brothers have not tried to deal with their father: killing him was not the only option they had, but the only one they thought to use.

I thus find it ill-placed to judge Adolin harshly for what he did, but allow everyone else a free pass for their, IMHO, worst actions. I think the chapters showed had the potential to understand just as Adolin is also likely to understand.

@218: I am hoping for Dalinar/Adolin centric conflict, but my gut feelings, after the first 15 chapters, are we are going more towards a Dalinar/Elhokar conflict. I am unsure if Dalinar will ever acknowledge Adolin exists besides giving him more tasks. This seems a bit premeditate to state it, but I am always appaled at seeing Dalinar devote so little thought about his own son. He seems very focus on Elhokar though, so there seem to lay the conflict.

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Brent
7 years ago

Interesting discussion on the legality of killing someone who is above the law.  History tells us that this is handled differently in different times.  Caligula had to be assassinated to be stopped, there seemed to be no recourse against him (and in modern times both Romania and Libya had leaders who were ‘above the law” whose reigns ended similarly).  I don’t think that the assassins in any of those cases were prosecuted.

On the other hand, Henry VII, who was probably above the law as well, was very careful to make sure that the official history set down by contemporary sources on the issue of the Princes in the Tower very clearly put the blame on his predecessor.  So he clearly felt that at least for PR reasons, he needed to be seen as blameless in the deaths of his brothers-in-law.  We cannot know whether, if the truth were that Henry Tudor did have something to do with the Princes’ deaths, that could have led to his removal by some “legal” means.

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Euphrasie
7 years ago

I think I need to go back and reread Shallan’s moral philosophy lesson and analysis vis à vis all these murder scenarios…

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Tommy
7 years ago

I guess I remembered her conversation with the Ghostbloods wrong at the end of WoR, but I would have expected the Shallan of the past to have spent some time thinking about and communicating with them by now.

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7 years ago

Spiritwalker51@223,
I went and looked it up after your comment. I can’t remember how I read it at the first time, but now knowing what really happened, I believe Shallan knew what really happened to her mother and was trying her best to suppress it (and of course it was also meant to throw the reader off course at first). When the ruler’s official comes to ask about the night’s events and Wikim suggests that Shallan tells him what happened, Shallan refuses:
“I don’t know what happened. I don’t remember it.”
It didn’t happen. It didn’t.
And even before that, every time she happens to think of her mother her mind goes still, and she protected her father from Heleran when he accused father of killing their mother. Now, with a hindsight, I read it she knew.
In chapter 73, during the fight between their father and Balat, Shallan offers him the wine she has poisoned and when they discover that he still lives and is merely paralized, she takes off her necklace, thanks her father for what he’s done for her, and then strangles him while singing him the same lullaby. Exactly what she herself says in this chapter here (15). Which, murder or not, I personally do not hold against her since her father had just murdered his new wife and terrorized the whole family AND was probably about to kill her brother.
Edit: Dang. It bothers me when names are misspelled and now I did the same myself. And I was so sure I typed A instead of E …

ImpatientKensai
ImpatientKensai
7 years ago

@228 It’s true that the discussion of murder here in the US is ultimately moot. Dalinar is the law at Urithiru. In the end, it will be whatever he feels is right that will determine Adolin’s punishment.

To my other point it may be a similar situation as in WOR where Dalinar sits Kaladin down after the arena and basically yells at him for being so shortsighted with all of the bigger things going on. Unfortunately in desolations a LOT of people die. I don’t see this one being any different. Sadeas might just be a drop in the sea when everyone finds out. 

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7 years ago

@70 I forgot I was going to mention this. While I would agree that the exact phrase is unlikely…mostly because sec is an abbreviation though…

We know that they have been in the practice of scientific discovery with fabrials which, when making a small platform hover, they measured how long it stayed up.  I’m not sure the measurement they used and I don’t have WoR handy.  If you want to measure the time something takes you are going to have a way to subdivide even it is just counting at a relatively slow pace. Seconds likely comes from the latin word follows.  If we are assuming that everybody speaks English than they would have similarly derived words.  A Second might not mean what it does in our world but could still be a rough measurement of time for scholars…that would include Shallan.

However, what is more likely is that in the world of Roshar they have their own language. The author, Brandon Sanderson, simplifies the book by not writing all of their dialog in Rosharan or whatever they speak. Therefore as a translator for us he takes liberty to give us words and phrases that we can understand that match the tone of what they are saying.

If you are going to comment on how unrealistic it would be for somebody to say such a thing we need to also comment on the fact that they are all speaking English…

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Kalaxin
7 years ago

Halojones @206,  The bulk of the cited paragraph regarding Shallan’s opinion of Adolin and Kaladin is about Kaladin.  The personality descriptors, once she starts thinking of Kaladin, match him and not Adolin.  While Shallan is romantically involved with Adolin whom she finds to be very attractive, outgoing, noble, and genuine, she is a fascinated by Kaladin stemming from their experience in the chasm.  She finds him to be brilliant, passionate, indomitable, and elemental.  Those qualities may not qualify for her romantic interest – particularly since she has experienced his prejudice against Lighteyes and his controlled anger, but she has yet to appreciate his loyalty, empathy, and overwhelming sense of responsibility.  They shared much – but hardly all, of their experiences and motivations while under stress in the chasm.  Now we can expect a further conversation where the hidden aspects are revealed.  This may not lead to a romantic interest, but it will likely make for a very strong friendship fueled by mutual admiration and common intellectual interests.

However that conversation may not occur until well into the forthcoming book.  Kaladin had intended to first head for Kholinar to see if he could alleviate the situation and confront the evil there.  However, he has allowed himself to be captured by transformed Parshmen.  While he can easily deal with those whom he has seen, there is someone or something that he has not seen who apparently commands a spren that has uncovered his spying.  The situation could become dicey for him depending on the power and intent of this unknown being.

 

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Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@225:

I only read those once, and quickly. Did Wax and Marasi actually express feelings for one another? Or was that more of a fan ship? I was referencing a full-blown love triangle, which I didn’t get the impression that Wax and Marasi were ever going to be a thing. Maybe I misread it?

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7 years ago

@223 & 231:

I agree with Celebrinnen that Shallan knew her father was innocent, but was just suppressing her role in her mother’s death.  I don’t have the book in front of me, but there is another even clearer statement after that flashback quoted in 231 when she tells the prince that she doesn’t remember.  In a later chapter, one of her brothers mutters about her father, and Shallan says “He didn’t do it.”  He argues that she doesn’t remember and is broken. 

In my recent reread with prior knowledge, I also felt like her father made significant hints a couple of times when he blamed Shallan for his anger/violence/being thought of as a wife murderer.  It’s only understandable in hindsight, but it stood out to me. I think Shallan’s enormous sense of duty toward her father for most of the flashbacks, even as he descended more and more into evil, came from that suppressed guilt of knowing he took the blame for her.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@236:

The ohter thing that came across in my reread this summer regarding Shallan and her father was that the real reason he withheld physical abuse from Shallan was that he was quite simply afraid of her Shardblade. Shallan interpreted it as the affection staying his hand, because she was lying to herself regarding Pattern, and needed to find another reason.

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7 years ago

FSS  – I think your posting is on the right track.  I believe the author was the Sunmaker.  I think the action that he used to remove the spren from the Voidbringers killed those spren, and also killed all the bonded spren of the KR.  And if he was a Bondsmith, it’s possible he was bonded with the Almighty, which would be how the Almighty died.  The death of the KR spren would definitely lead them to quit (Recreance) and abandon their sword/plate which was the dead spren.  Also if Sunmaker was known to be responsible, this would be the reason for everyone to hate/blame him, causing him to go into hiding so the world would believe him dead!  This would also explain why the Stormfather forbids “his” spren from bonding with humans, fearing the same action happening again. Surely someone who is responsible for the death of the Almighty would be known as a godless heretic, and experiencing the death of your bonded spren (and God!) would be worse than death.

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Cleric of Science
7 years ago

There’s actually 2 Words of Brandon about this supposed love triangle between Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin:

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)
Please don’t tell me you’re going to do a love triangle between Adolin, Kaladin, and Shallan.
BRANDON SANDERSON
(he phrased this very carefully) I’m not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080

QUESTION
There won’t be a weird love triangle between Kaladin / Shallan / Adolin?
BRANDON SANDERSON
I will do my best not to be weird.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1121

 

so I don’t think that anything he will ultimately do with Shallan and Kaladin and Adolin will be an actual love triangle- just conflict, largely, I am guessing, due to the fact that she will feel a connection to two people, and one of them knows things that the other does not (yet). It’s conflicting, just like all relationships. You don’t stop being attracted to people just because you make a commitment, but you do act differently. My two cents. 

 

 

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7 years ago

“Brightness Aladar suggests…”

Isn’t the title ‘Brightness’ reserved for females? According to coppermind in the entry for Lighteyes: “Brightness can be used to address a lighteyed lady of any rank.”

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7 years ago

#240, the quote is referring to May Aladar, the Highprince’s daughter. She seems to be acting as his scribe.

Speaking of May, she’s been brought up a lot in these chapters. I wonder if she’ll have a larger role going forward? She might be potential radiant material.

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7 years ago

@241 Thank you, Artemis.

Does that mean then that ‘Aladar’ is a surname? If so, what is Highprince Aladar’s first name?

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7 years ago

@227 Gepeto

The position of Shallan’s father is complicated.  He’s not a sovereign ruler, and he does answer to the highprince of his princedom, but he’s still a lord with immense power within his own holdings.  The highprince is a long way away, and Shallan’s father commands the guards on his own lands.  Short of running away, which they lacked the resources and courage to do, Shallan’s brothers didn’t have much legal recourse to their father’s abuse, and Shallan had less; I’m not even sure if an unmarried lighteyed woman can run from her father, or whether she is legally under his guardianship until marriage. 

I have no intention of allowing Adolin a free pass for murdering Sadeas, since I see no reason why he should be robbed of credit for killing a man who persisted in threatening his family.  I don’t think it will cause him problems with Shallan if she finds out; she doesn’t strike me as the type to judge someone for keeping secrets or protecting their family. 

 @228 Brent

Henry VII was a successful usurper who understood the value of propaganda.  Admitting that he murdered his brothers-in-law would have damaged his public image, while blaming the whole thing on Richard III furthered his goal of turning the last York monarch into a puppy-kicking monster.  Even in a country where the law was basically meaningless, admitting his guilt (if he was guilty) would have provided the next usurper with a rallying cry to overthrow a tyrant who murdered his own kin.  Autocrats don’t have to respect the law, but that doesn’t mean they want to needlessly create bad publicity.

Legal limits can protect the ruler as well as the ruled.  If a bad monarch can be restrained or removed through some kind of process, then they’re a lot less likely to wind up getting stabbed. 

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Calebrockstedt
7 years ago

It just occurred to me, reading this, that there perhaps there’s more to Adolin’s insinuation that he’s no longer worthy of Shallan, her being a Radiant, than first meets the eye. We know there are ten Heralds, five male, five female, and that Dalinar saw Radiants in a male-female pairing in one of his visions, and that the Parshendi fight in male-female war-pairs. What if there’s some special male-female Radiant bonding that’s meant to happen? Like soulmates or something.. I mean, we all know Kaladin and Shallan are meant to end up together… However things might be right now.. 

Also totally think that Adolin’s going to turn out to be one of the bad guys, probably join the skybreakers, get an honorblade and there will be some epic clash with Kaladin in the end.. 

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7 years ago

238.  I don’t know if we have any information regarding the Sunmaker being Radiant.  That said, even if he was, he would not have been “bonded” to the Almighty, since the Nahel Bond was a construction of the spren, while the Almighty was Tanavast as Honor.  Honor would not have established such a bond to make someone Radiant, since he had already created the Honorblades for basically that purpose.

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7 years ago

@244 Calebrockstedt

I can’t think of anything more dysfunctional for either a marriage or a military unit than forced romantic relationships based on “Radiant bonding”.  Forcing people to get together romantically based on their powers seems like a disastrous idea from the start, and it only gets worse the more you think about it.  Is Dalinar supposed to divorce Navani and marry a female Radiant because of some mystical idea of “soulmates”? 

Adolin loves his father and brother.  He fights to protect his family, and he has never been anything but loyal to the people he cares about.  If you can think of a motive for Adolin to suddenly abandon everything he’s ever believed in and everyone he’s ever loved, please let us know.  I don’t think Sanderson is going to have Adolin just randomly go “dark side” for no reason.   

Brandon Sanderson isn’t the kind of writer who would insist that two characters can’t possibly marry unless both of them have some kind of shared magical power.  In fact, he tends to pair powered individuals with Muggles; look at Vin and Elend, Wax and Steris, and Susebron and Siri.  The idea that spren would make their humans partner off with other Radiants seems both unethical and impractical, and I know Dalinar would tell the Stormfather to pound sand in the extremely unlikely event that he even suggested it. 

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7 years ago

@239: “I will do my best not to be weird” is not a sentence I’m accustomed to hearing from fantasy authors. (Or people in my social sphere, for that matter). Weirdness is commonly a prized trait. :-p

Sanderson writes arranged marriages that begin with conflict between the characters, but turn blissful once they get to know each other. OK, Wax and Steris will always have differing perceptions and personalities that may cause friction, but they seem devoted to each other now (and I do approve of their romance). If there’s any hint of impending trouble for Susebron and Siri, or Sarene and Raoden, I’d like to know of it.

May seems an odd name for someone in a place that lacks our calendar.

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7 years ago

 Re:The Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin sandwich 

From what we’re seeing from the players involved there is definitely reason to suspect things can go either way. Shallan seems dedicated to a match with Adolin; she likes him way more than someone forced into a match would be. It really looks like she could love him and may be halfway there already. That being said, there is no denying that she finds Kaladin somewhat appealing. And she is a young woman without much experience in the realm of love. Adolin for all his virtues may be a bit dull in comparison to the intense and passionate Kaladin. For Kaladin, there’s no doubt he wants her but he likes Adolin and isn’t the type to betray a friend. Adolin is trying to overcome a feeling of inadequacy from being paired with a Radient. It’s a soup.

Braid_Tug
7 years ago

@239: I was at JordanCon helping with that signing.  The grin Brandon gave after the “not be weird” answer was near evil joy. 

@AP, re: Wax and Marisi – it’s made more clear in SoS. She has a massive crush on him.  Wax, I think he is still in love with his dead wife too much still to return her feelings.

Re: magic user and muggle  love.  HAHA! 

Thank you! What a great way to put it. :-)

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@38 mark22

The Sunmaker does appear an obvious choice for the author, but the timing is off – he was the king who broke the Heirocracy which is after the the fall of the KR. So he couldn’t have a Nahel bond, and certainly not with a full Shard of Adonalsium.

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7 years ago

@237  I am glad that you brought that up.  I had totally gotten that impression too, though perhaps along with at least some weird mix of the original love that led him to take the blame and not wanting to “waste” that sacrifice, for lack of a better term. 

Pg. 560-61 WoR hard cover: In the chapter when Jushu is getting dragged away by his debtors and Shallan questions her father’s own bribes and debts, he yells at her and it is emphasized how that he never yelled at her over the years.  For a monster, that seems like fear mixed with love, or faintly remembered love.  As he gets angrier, “Shallan felt a terrifying hatred from her father.”  He squeezes her arms painfully and “growls” “I’ve done this for you.”  When he sees that he’s actually hurt her, he looks up at “Mother’s soul’ in the safe, i.e. the shardblade, and lets her go.  He knows she could pop that blade right into his chest just like she later did to Tyn.  “Father actually looked like he wanted to hurt me,” Shallan thinks. On 564, he brutally injures the maid before telling Shallan “You know I would never hurt you.”  Then “I would not want to have to punish anyone else because of you, Shallan.” He knows what happened when Shallan felt her life threatened by her mother, and instead devises a cruel alternate method of control that he knows will work on his compassionate daughter without directly tempting the reappearance of the shard blade. 

I also found the reference I didn’t have at hand earlier, pg. 744.  Shallan says, “He didn’t do it.”  But Balat doesn’t believe her because she has told him that her mind blanks when she thinks of it.  She knows the truth of her father’s innocence of that original killing, but has to repress what she did in order to survive.

And one final item–I didn’t particularly love the “Just a sec” line either, but in searching for the flashbacks, I came across pg. 579.  When Shallan and Adolin bond at the café set up to watch the high storms approach, she specifically counts “six seconds” from when the doors close to when the stormwall hits. So while the comment about pre-modern society not bothering with seconds is well taken, this alternate world has already established that lighteyes/scholars know and use seconds, and even more specifically, Shallan. That makes Shallan using some Rosharan equivalent fairly realistic to me. Lift’s “awesomeness” completely threw me out of the story when I first read that, but after years of WoR and Edgedancer, it has melded into the world and fits in my head.

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@244 Calebrockstedt

I think you’re reading to much into that. We saw two KR who happened to be a male and a female, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s formalised that way. As it has been said, Spren aren’t that fussed about gender. So there would be roughly equal numbers of male and female KR, with arbitrary paring of them about 50% of pairs of KR would be mixed gender. 

 

 

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

“@38 mark22

The Sunmaker does appear an obvious choice for the author, but the timing is off – he was the king who broke the Heirocracy which is after the the fall of the KR. So he couldn’t have a Nahel bond, and certainly not with a full Shard of Adonalsium.”

That’s meant to read “@238 mark22…”

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Shippywars
7 years ago

@251 Patillian There are definitely fabrial clocks, and since (WoK ch10) Lirin had Hearthstone’s only one, that measured at least minutes, I would guess they are more common possessions for lighteyes. WoR ch 37 refers to Navani’s fabrial clock on the wall measuring a full two hours.

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7 years ago

@235 AnthonyPero Wax specifically tells Marasi at the end of Alloy of Law that “This thing between us cannot happen” and she acts like she has no idea what he’s talking about because she’s super embarrassed.

AoL has Wax comment a few times on how Marasi is totally his type, but he never actually has feelings for her.  She takes most of Shadows of Self to get over him (and also, we start to see glimmers of how awesome Steris is).  Bands of Mourning is when Marasi gets a new love interest (which seems way more reciprocated) and Steris really gets time to shine, and Wax develops genuine feelings for his affianced (I use that word because I can never remember which “e” gets the accent).

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7 years ago

My thoughts on  the possible  ” love triangle”.

I think Adolin and Shallan truly like each other and are starting to develope real love towards each other.   I also think that Kaladin is starting to develope real feelings toward Shallan…..however Kaladin respects Adolin too much to interfere in his betrothal to Shallan.

Right now I feel that Shallan has more feelings towards Adolin than she does to Kaladin.  That could possibly change if she gets more one-on-one time with just Kaladin in this  book.

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7 years ago

@251 – “Awesomeness” I, like you, have adapted to after being thrown initially. The line of Shallan’s that really brings me out of the story in WoR is “Yay for originality”. Just, ow. Next she’ll be saying something like “Knights Radiant for the win”.

In other Cosmere works, in White Sands (this is totally not a spoiler) I got ejected from the story when there was a reference to 100 minutes in an hour. Given that the literal meaning of “minute” is “sixtieth”, this threw me, particularly because it’s so unnecessary.

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7 years ago

@243: While you may be right about Shallan, the major difference is, within the story, we really get Adolin did everything to try to deal with Sadeas whereas we do not really see Shallan trying until the faithful scene. Mind, it may be it would have ended the same way, but the fact no alternative avenues were explored does make it look worst.

This being said, I do not judge Shallan any harsly than I judge Adolin. I only think she could have done without the strangulation and the lullaby.

which has happened. I really do not understand why him turning evil remains a theory.

I don’t think Adolin will get a free pass eiter… but I have no idea how things will unravel. I am thinking he may not have to suffer many consequences.

On Adolin turning evil, I agree with @246. There is no rational to be had into which Adolin stops caring about everything he cares about just because it makes for a more dramatic arc. Adolin so far has shown to react spectacularly well to all

@247: The idea of a forced/arranged marriage implies both parties absolutely have to marry: Adolin and Shallan are both free to end the relationship at any time they wish to. What they have is more a blind date set up by family members hoping they will like each other.

@248: There is nothing which indicates Shallan loves Kaladin. I know readers have been speculated she must for years, but nothing, within the text at hand, suggests she even has those feelings for him. She thought of him, once out of curiosity, and never afterwards. Also, she did just described Adolin as very passionate. I honestly do not know where she got Kaladin was a passionate man because I certainly never read him this way. Adolin has real passion for the things he likes, passion which makes his eyes shine when he talks about it. I also do not understand where you get “Adolin is boring”. Shallan never thought of Adolin as boring: this too is has been speculated by readers because many assumed the fact he was not broken or the fact he seems so perfect meant he ought to be boring. A very prevalent trope, but honestly the textual never allows us to conclude it.

Of course, the same may not be true for Kaladin as he may have feelings for Shallan but, at this point in time, insisting Shallan has those feelings for Kaladin is a bit far-fetched.

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7 years ago

In regards to KR being required to marry another KR, remember the Stormfather himself married Dalinar and Navani, so I agree with dptullos that it is highly unlikely that now the spren would require that.

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Khyellie
7 years ago

I think what is happening with this not-a-love-triangle is that Shallan felt something for Kaladin after their chasm excursion, but that feeling didn’t really get a chance to develop because she found herself already in a relationship that works for her. I think she has chosen Adolin. Kaladin, on the other hand, doesn’t have someone else to think about and is slowly fostering his feelings for Shallan. I don’t think she’ll ever actually decide she likes him more than Adolin unless something definite comes between those two or Adolin is killed. Kaladin will probably have to fight some jealousy and resentment toward Adolin…but unless something big happens–and I don’t think confessing their killings would be enough–I think Kaladin is just going to have to find someone else.

Which I’m perfectly fine with, even though I don’t want to see Kaladin hurting. Shallan and Adolin are ADORABLE.

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7 years ago

Gepeto, I never said Shallan loves Kaladin, just that she finds some things about him that are appealing. Also, Brandon may be using a trope against us, mainly the one where 2 characters initially hate each other then over time eventually become affectionate through grudging acknowledgment of good qualities. In fact I think I bent over backwards saying that Shallan perfers Adolin at this point in the story. And as far as Adolin being boring, this is not a negative reflection on his character. I as a reader find his POV very entertaining. But from Shallan’s point of view, Adolin would look boring only in comparison to tall, dark and brooding Kaladin. The two men are a study in contrast. For a woman who is only 17 and is trying to figure out what she wants in life, a woman whose new social standing suddenly gives her options when she previously had none, it would be unrealistic for her not to even consider an alternative to her current betrothed, at least in her mind. And she has expressed some interest in Kaladin. You say she mentioned it once in her head but considering how much junk she hides from herself that’s plenty. I know that in a ship, some people prefer one couple over another. All I’m saying is don’t be so quick to dismiss the other possibilities just because you favor one outcome over another. For my personal opinion I think Adolin makes a better match for Shallan (even if he doesn’t become Awesome) and I hope that’s how it turns out. But Kaladin does have a decent chance to couple up with Shallan instead.

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7 years ago

@261: Apologies, I seem to have misunderstood you. Thank you for clarifying your thoughts. While it is true I prefer one ship over the other, I am not dismissing the possibility of things changing. I did mention within past comments my impressions were Brandon was going for a Kaladin/Shallan relationship. I however do think those last chapters have given us reasons to believe it may not be the case.

In shorts, while we cannot predict how the story will unfold, I think it safe to say Shallan doesn’t currently have any feelings nor afterthoughts nor blatant interest within Kaladin. Obviously what may happen at a later time remains unknown, but at the moment Adolin certainly doesn’t come across as the “second choice” nor the “safe choice”. She genuinely chooses him and wants to be with him.

As for Shallan thinking Kaladin is more “exciting” because of his “brooding personality”, I think this is pushing traditional tropes a bit too fast. While it is true the entertainment industry has firmly implemented the notion all girls prefer non-smiling, dark and mysterious men over open, friendly, smiling and genuinely kind men, reality couldn’t be more different. In shorts, there is nothing within the textual which suggests Shallan is even attracted to non-sympathetic grumbling men due to the aura of darkness they carry around them. I would even say the textual at hand has depicted her as the girl preferring the complete opposite: both Kasbal and Adolin are smiling, engaging, friendly individuals. Adolin’s smile is one of the things which won Shallan over: how she loves seeing him smile and laugh. Shallan states even though he tried to kill her, she remembers fondly how sweet Kasbal was. Thus there is nothing which suggests she has a predisposition to automatically fall for Kaladin because of his darker personality.

As for her thinking Kaladin is more exciting, I strongly disagree. She states how Adolin has people wanting to kill him basically everyday. He duels. He fights. His life is often at risk while Kaladin usually stands still with his spear waiting for something to happen. Now, I don’t meant to say Kaladin is boring, but I really do not get why Shallan ought to think him more interesting and exciting than Adolin based on her personality, her tastes, her perspective and what she has seen of both men.

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7 years ago

@244 Calebrockstedt  And in the one vision that showed such a male/female pairing, it was a Windrunner and an Edgedancer, judging from the powers displayed.  Which, when you think of it, would make a seriously kick-ass combat combo.

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7 years ago

@257 Minute does mean 1/60th now but further back it was just ‘made small’:

late Middle English: via Old French from late Latin minuta, feminine (used as a noun) of minutus ‘made small.’ The senses ‘period of sixty seconds’ and ‘sixtieth of a degree’ derive from medieval Latin pars minuta prima ‘first minute part.’

 
I don’t see anything wrong with 100 minutes in an hour because of the origins of the word.  Etymology is important.
 

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7 years ago

I’m not much for romance, and the only pairing I really want   is Eshonai / nobody, but I think that Kaladin killing Shallan’s brother and  not telling her about it would be a greater obstacle to a happy ever after than Adolin killing the most widely despised high prince on the Shattered Plains and not telling her about it immediately. Of course Sadeas’s death has greater political implications, but Shallan loved her brother, and Kaladin was totally justified in killing the Shardbearer who had just slaughtered most of his friends, so that seems like a sticking point.

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7 years ago

While we’re on the subject of matrimony / teamwork, here’s a frightening thought:  an Ialai / Amaram team-up and possibly marriage of convenience.  Consider:  Ialai needs someone to perform the masculine roles of leadership to satisfy social custom, and Amaram is the highest-ranked subordinate in her late husband’s princedom, even if he is now disgraced. Sadeas was implied to have had something on Amaram that assured his loyalty, which Ialai almost certainly knows. And she is a valuable resource in herself, controlling spies and assassins.  Even if they end up scheming at cross-purposes half the time, they could make a delightfully twisty team working against the heroes.    Furthermore, I got the impression (from near the end of Ch. 76 in WoR, when Sadeas and Ialai were watching Dalinar’s expedition set off) that Ialai had already begun to weigh the pros and cons of keeping Sadeas around.  Maybe there’ll even be a scene where she gloats to Adolin about how he not only did something she would have had to do eventually but also gave her the means to discredit his family at the same time, and thanks him for doing her work for her.  

Of course, she could surprise us all and genuinely ally with Dalinar, figuring he’s the best horse to back.  Maybe.

I hope those two deleted comments weren’t the result of my phone spewing gibberish as I tried to type and submitt this comment; that would be embarressing.

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7 years ago

@268: I never even thought about Ialai’s situation in the High Prince station. Sadeus had no heirs did he? Will she become High Princess? It could become quite the political football if whoever marries her becomes the High Prince.

I also wish we had more information about the striations in the walls of the city. There has been too much mention of them, even showing that Shallan had pages and pages of drawings of them.

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

Celebrinnen @231
I understand. My thinking at the time I originally heard it was that she refused to accept that her father had killed her mother. But of course from this retrospect, we do know.

No, I also do not hold her accountable, in my mind either. One of the things I love about Fantasy and Science Fiction is it gives us a unique lens through which to view morality and philosophy.

Comment updated at 11:07 AM

Patillian @251
Thanks for clearing that up, none of that even registered in my mind, when I was listening to the audiobooks, I am definitely getting the books next week. Much easier to keep track that way, I am sure.

On the “just a sec” thing, that stuck out like a sore thumb for me as well. An irritation since it is a modern slang term we all have used. Seems so out of place in this book even though we are told all through both books that it takes 10 seconds to call a shardblade forth; so obviously they were aware of that time unit in their world view.

A bit off topic but when Hercules, and Xena: Warrior Princess were out I could not watch them because their language was just simply not believable because of all the modern slang terms they used in the series. I tried several times to watch it, but I could not. My mind could not process how stupid it sounded to hear those ancient characters speak like that. It was not believable.

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7 years ago

@269: I don’t think she can inherit the princedom, but attaching herself to the successor might be advantageous for both of them. She has the knowledge of the princedom’s resources and policies, etc., and experience administering it. And if she married the successor, she avoids Navani’s situation of impotent widowhood. Plus, a wise brightlord is always looking for a woman who comes with her own spy network. And Amaran is unmarried, so. . . Though Ialai would probably end up wanting someone easier to control in the end, and almost certainly doesn’t know about his involvement in the Sons of Honor. They might work well together for a while and then end up backstabbing each other. :D We should be so lucky.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@269, 271:

Can’t see it being Amaram. He’s on the lamb, as Dalinar had every intention prior to the Everstorm of bringing Amaram up on charges once they’d finished their expedition to the center of the Shattered Plains. Of course, now that Dalinar is going to be ceding control of all Alethi issues outside of Urithiru, its possible Elhokar might decide to make him Highprince, but seeing as he kind of hero-worships Kaladin, I can’t see that happening either.

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7 years ago

@272: Good point. Last we saw him, though, he was en route to Urithiru with maybe-Taln, dodging Ghostblood assassins. So he’ll probably show up somehow.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Well, showing up in Urithiru and not in hiding puts him squarely in Dalinar’s clutches, and makes it even less likely that Amaram will become a Highprince. 

However, Amaram probably has important information that Dalinar needs. That’s more likely where that storyline is going.

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Joshua danes
7 years ago

Plot twist:  Elhokar makes Kaladin highprince over Sadeas old lands, Ialai marries Kal and the ship war ends.

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

 Muswell @257
Thanks!  While commenting a bit ago on the “just a sec” thing, I knew there were other phrases that threw me out of the story as well.  Phrases like “Yay for originality” being another. 

 233. vandaralden  points out that people of Roshar don’t speak English and while that is true, obviously, a cohesive train of thought keeps one centered within the storyline, IMHO.  Far be it for me to try to correct BS usage of grammar and colloquial terms, but reading comments like “awesomeness” and some of the slang words that Shallan uses, does throw me completely out of the mood of the story when I read them.  It is a disorienting feeling when you are so invested in the storyline and have been reading, well listening in my case, for hours. 

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7 years ago

@275: That’s despicable! *evil laugh* I love it!

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Tommy
7 years ago

Amaram headed for Urithiru? Anyone got their book handy? I didn’t get that sense at all. I thought once he grabbed Taln he was on the lamb and running away from the war camps. I didn’t see anything about trying to get into Urithiru. Help!

Scathe
Scathe
7 years ago

I recall in previous threads you stating that because Syl didn’t like Adolin, then that absolutely guaranteed that only Kaladin and Shallan will work out. That Adolin becoming a highprince means his relationship with Shallan absolutely positively can only go no where. That also in another thread another poster commented about how Shallan thought about Kaladin flying her around would allow her a better view of Urithiru would be very similar to “a whole new world” with Jasmine and Alladin. So Shallan has thought of Kaladin in oathbringer which is counter to your point that she has had no thoughts of him at all. I also think considering how extreme your opinion of this book has jumped back and forth based on one chapter each is rather reductionist to say that your latest stance is the only stance that makes sense. We have only read a few chapters in a very large book which is one book in a 10 book long series. People see different things in the content. I think it is a bit extreme to state you feel your interpretation is the only way it can go. 

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7 years ago

@264 – Yeah, it’s probably a “just me” thing, because I was taught to come to the “pars minuta prima” from its Greek version “prota heksekosta”, which does literally mean a sixtieth and which preceded the Latin version by at least a millennium. I always liked the fact that “deutera heksekosta” became “pars minuta secunda” to give us “second”, because the similarity in sound between “heksekosta” and “secunda” is a complete coincidence.

Still jars me out of the narrative/pretty pictures.

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7 years ago

 @@@@@ 278 Last words in his letter to the mysterious Restares: “When next I write to you, I hope to do so from Urithiru.” Ch. 88.

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7 years ago

Seems so out of place in this book even though we are told all through both books that it takes 10 seconds to call a shardblade forth; so obviously they were aware of that time unit in their world view.

It is always 10 heartbeats, which can be different lengths of time depending on how excited someone is.

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7 years ago

@276 I suppose it’s more a matter of expectation.  Many people have an expectation for Fantasy stories and some people are very sensitive to things that don’t meet their expectations. For me it doesn’t bother me but I can see how it might for others.

Mostly I was commenting on the technicality of it.  For those that feel there is something technically wrong with the phrase…there isn’t…for those who just find it to be a little off…well, that’s individual and understandable.

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

birgit @282

I sit corrected, you are right!  It is heartbeats! 

:)  Funny hour our minds do those kinds of things, isn’t it? 

windrunner_1218
7 years ago

November 14th seems so far away!

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7 years ago

Re: “Just a sec”; in addition to the previously stated references to “seconds” as time measurement units in the text, all of the “death rattles” in WoK are cited as “X seconds pre-death” or “X seconds before death.”

Re: Dividing by zero

In college, our joking method to solve any HW problem was to multiply both sides of the equation by 0, then divide both sides by 0 to get the final answer.  Unfortunately, this method only worked on the odd-numbered problems, where the answers were in the back of the book.  :-)

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7 years ago

Man, we had a big conference at work so I’ve been otherwise occupied and it’s taken me several days just to read through this and the comments.

Brief throughts:
-epigraph – while I still want it to be Jasnah (and think it could be) it is starting to feel a little less like her in a way I can’t put my finger on. I still don’t have another great guess though (especially given the reference to only women reading) so for now I’m still gonna say Jasnah.

-Shallan/Adolin – I enjoy their interaction. They are kind of bumbling in a sweet, goofy way and I think that rings true. I think as others have pointed out there could be a genuine connection there (although with their secrets it could also cause some conflicts). I’m not a huge fan of the Kaladin ship even though I acknowledge there is some tension there and Shallan clearly thinks he’s striking/intriguing/intense – if for no other reason that you can be drawn to somebody or admire them or even have a special connection but not necessarily be romantically compatible or attracted.  We’ll see!  But I like how they are both trying to work together and sharing/respecting each others’ skills even though it means bucking some conventions.  That said, I hope eventually they (especially Shallan) can really open up to each other.

-OMG Pattern. I also laughed out loud at ‘divide by zero’ and for what it’s worth, I also am a programmer. :)  Yes, it’s a ‘math thing’ but in computer programming it’s usually a pretty important/concrete error (and pretty much fatal, at least in the language I work with) so it makes sense it would hit home a little more.

-NO MATING. Bwahahaha :)

-Not so warm and fuzzy – Shallan’s compartmentalizing, although the sense of anxiety really rings true to me.  Hopefully the ‘lies’ of who she is are something she can eventually integrate back into herself as she realizes that all of those different personas are just facets of who she is – she really is that capable, strong, etc.  (And isn’t that really what a lot of confidence/charisma is?  Just kind of projecting a persona and faking it until you make it.)

-I found the Kaladin chapter an interesting interlude, although I’ll say that the part where he overhears the parshmen talking about not grasping the card game filled me with a really deep sense of sadness.  I am really interested to see where Sanderson goes with them and what could end up being their own search for rediscovering their potential/identities.  And especially how Kaladin will react to that.

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7 years ago

@279: I am sorry you seem so offended by my posts. Just like everybody, my perspective on the story is evolving as I read it.  I was not aware it was “reductionist” to attempt at re-positioning what I thought was where the story was heading in light of the new chapters. I wasn’t aware it  made my entire argumentation “garbage” and to be “readily dismissed”. I believe I have brought ample facts to support my positions.

For the rest, I have stated my opinion and it is such I do not personally believe there is evidence enough, within the existing narrative, to conclude Shallan has any romantic feelings whatsoever towards Kaladin nor she is preferring him. Bringing up this one time she mentioned him, and not by name, stating because one reader thought it made him think of Jasmine and Alladin is an argument in favor of her having feelings for Kaladin is really very far-fetched. Sorry if I do not consider this argument to be strong enough to contradict the ones I have brought forward nor the textual the current narrative has offered us.

If my thoughts come across as “forceful” or “offending” because they do not embrace a more popular line of thinking, there isn’t much I can say. I will keep on posting my feelings on each chapters and yes, I will certainly change my mind once again on aspects of the story. I thought this was the purpose of the pre-read: seeing how our impressions are evolving as we progress within the story.

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taisharandor
7 years ago

 The Adolin/Shallan relationship reminds me of the Egwene’s initial fascination with Galad in WoT. I don’t know why, as there are no obvious parallels, it just feels that way to me in these last two chapters. Considering we are so early in the series I would not be surprised if Shallan ends up with neither Adolin nor Kaladin at the end of the series. 

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7 years ago

275. @@@@@Joshua danes

 

That is pure evil…………like absolutely horrible.

Realistically I don’t think Kaladin would be cool with becoming a High Prince and I am not sure if he even could?  He is a light eyes sometimes now, but only after holding sylblade for a bit.  Also the age gap?  Do we know how old Ialai even is?  Because I am sure she is way older than Kal and he wouldn’t be about that.

Also how honorable would it be to marry his ex evil high prince ruler’s wife….

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7 years ago

For all of those Kaladin/Shallan fans, let me remind you of his “barriers” to such a relationship back in Chapter 10.

“Shallan’s a lighteyes,” Kaladin said. “That’s the end of the conversation.”

“But—”

“End,” he said, stepping into the home of the village lighteyes. Then he added under his breath, “And stop spying on people when they’re being intimate. It’s creepy.”

As it stands, Kaladin has too many mental blocks against lighteyed individuals. It would require a lot maturation and forgiveness of what Lighteyes have done to him (Roshone, Amaram, Sadeas). If that does occur, I still don’t think a relationship between the two is realistic. I really enjoyed the time between Shallan and Adolin this chapter and I look forward to their relationship growing.

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7 years ago

Lisamarie @287: Thanks for reminding me of the other thing I meant to mention (and for making the exact point I was going to).  In gambling terms, right now the author of the epigraphs is Jasnah vs. “the field” (i.e., anyone else).  These epigraphs are the first time I’ve started to give any serious thought to the field option.

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Jacob
7 years ago

I think Kaladin will be the bridge that brings the new parshmen into the fold. Rlin can vouch for him on one side of the planet and with this surrender we will see him make all new “friends”. His eyes being dark and those slave brands are going to give him an advantage in dealing with the transformed parshmen.

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Jacob
7 years ago

I believe Brandon Sanderson said that Shallan was the furthest along Knight Radiant at the end of words of radiance. This quote here, may imply that Shallan can already form plate.

“Not that I know of,” she said. Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold, her muscles tense. She fought against the sensation. “I don’t know where Plate comes from.”

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Cadence
7 years ago

@225 & @235

I recently reread W&W series. Marasi had kind of a fangirl crush on Wax, which he found flattering, but also tried to discourage. There was a sense that if Marasi had been a legitimate heir, things might have proceeded differently, but all parties seemed to accept the situation was what it was. Marasi moved on, and Steris proved to be ideal for Wax who really wasn’t ready to marry her until he fell for her. 

As it is, I just loved the idea of “Uncle Wayne” telling bed-time stories to Wax and Steris’s children ;)

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Zhe
7 years ago

I feel like everyone has forgotten that Kaladin killed Shallan’s brother. This could seriously impact their future relationship. 

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Fulgriim
7 years ago

So Shallon completely changing who she is reminds me alot of emperor’s soul and soulbonds where you remember who you would normally be but it’s as if life had happened differently for you.

I don’t know if someone mentioned this before I’m a bit behind on comments so far

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Cadence
7 years ago

@238  & 77, 258

Hmmm… Like the big picture thinking here. Agree that Sunmaker didn’t have full Shard…seems this would have resulted in an Ascention like what we see on Scadrial. Had the feeling the Sunmaker was actually one of the Heralds with a new identity. He drifted into obscurity because…well… I don’t think the Heralds really die. He might have been able to affect the bonds between spren and Radients as suggested, but long before he became the Sunmaker. 

Still, I’m convinced the Radients actually did *something* to “kill” their spren. Kaladin almost did so by refusing to let go of his lust for vengence. Radients were human, and fallible, but not intentionally so. Maybe they followed a dark path for too long? But so many, all falling, all at one time? The vision of the Recreance which we see in WoKs is extremely limited. I think its possible the Radients broke their Oaths because it was the lesser of two evils. 

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7 years ago

@298.  It is totally like soulbonds, but it is a little less intense.  Rather than re-shaping her soul is is more of a personalitybond haha.  She is still the same underneath, but is able to mask and shape her personality and form as needed.  (Not going to double post for my first Hunny….but it is certainly tempting…)

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7 years ago

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Never mind….guess I had better timing than I thought!

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7 years ago

@@@@@289 taisharandor. It’s funny you compare Shallan to Egwene, because I just finished a WOT reread, after having done an SA reread before it, and I kept getting the two mixed up in my head. It’s probably because I listened to the audiobooks and they have the same voice, but there are some personality traits that they have in common. They are both young, very smart for their age, fast learners, and outwardly ambitious, while having internal insecurities about themselves. Also, Shallan’s ability in WOR to make people listen and do what she says reminded me of Egwene’s same ability to have everyone fall in line around her. However there is one big difference (at least for me): Shallan is likable and Egwene is not. I never could bring myself to like her.

Adolin seems more like Gawyn to me, minus the part about being a total idiot. Maybe Book 1 Gawyn.

@@@@@292 adolin. Regarding Kaladin’s comment about Shallan being a lighteyes, I took it to mean that he thinks a lighteyed woman would never date a darkeyed man. I think Kaladin is attracted to Shallan, but in his mind it would never work because Shallan is betrothed to a lighteyed Prince and would never give him a second thought. There was a moment near the end of WOR where he wanted to go and talk to Shallan but she was with Adolin. He felt a moment of jealousy, but decided that Shallan and Adolin work good together and “he could hate that.” I think from his end, he would consider a relationship, but he doesn’t think she would. I don’t really think she would either. She has a lot of prejudiced against darkeyes.

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7 years ago

Bad_Platypus @286 and others who have commented on the jarring word/expression issues:

I never disputed that Rosharans can measure seconds. However, the expression “just a second” can only develop in a society where vast majority of people have precise time-pieces on their persons constantly  and  are used to/need to be frequently consulting them. Which is why I used early 20-ieth century for comparison – clocks and even watches certainly existed, but were far from ubiquitious, so the expression “just a second” didn’t develop yet. By contrast, Rosharans don’t even have an equivalent of watches, just clocks which scientists and engineers and nobles use, yes, but even their days aren’t organized around precise time-keeping, like ours are.

And yes, I am open to “translation” argument, but don’t we have an eminently fitting “just a moment” expression that would work much better without being culturally jarring? I mean, if you were translating an 18th – 19th century work, even specifically into modernized language, would you chose to insert “just a second” into it, instead of the synonyms matching the time period? 

I am not advocating the  use of faux-Elizabethan or otherwise archaic language, just avoidance of the expressions that are obviously rooted in modern technology/society, when the setting of your story is not remotely similar.

Which is why “awesomeness” or even  “Yay, for originality” didn’t trouble me, but “just a sec” did.

As did “washwomen” and a female surgeon’s apprentice in a society where women must keep one of their hands gloved at all times when in public.

At least, with domestic chores, it can be argued that women can perform those that require making hands wet/dirty in-doors, where only the family is present.

And now on to something completely different:

Let me throw my completely out of the left field suggestion for the author of “Oathbringer” – Amaram. Shallan already suspected him of being able to write, yet he considers himself a devote Vorinist. He certainly knows a lot of shady stuff about both Kholin brothers and through his association with “Taln” is likely to learn more of the same about the Heralds.The author is clearly Vorin – hence the worry about being considered a heretic, the reference to women reading the book, “read or having read to”, etc. Seeing Shadesmar is certainly a stumbling block there, but maybe one of the Radiants or Heralds will provide that? Or some ancient fabrial?

Speaking of Taravangian’s “Radiant” – we know that somebody swiped “Taln’s” Blade – which, I think, was a Honorblade, whatever uncertainties re: his identity. IIRC, there is a WoB that Hoid wasn’t the one to switch the blades. What if it was the Diagram? They could very well know that a Honorblade would open an Oathgate. They know that 9 out of 10 Heralds defected – it is mentioned in a Diagram epigraph somewhere how Taln alone was keeping the Desolation back, they knew in advance that it was imminent thanks to Gavilar, and it is probably well-documented that Taln always appeared in Alethela or near Kholinar, even, which appears to be ancient. They could have been watching and waiting for him.  

I also suspect that at least one of the ex-Heralds  is working with T. in a misguided effort to help people against the Desolation in some way other  than Heralding – just as Nale had been attempting to prevent one by killing Radiants.  

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Regarding the use of anachronisms in The Stormlight Archive and other Cosmere books.

So, the reality is, this bothers some people, and it doesn’t bother others. And nothing I say is likely to change that, lol! But, I think its important to remember that there are beings in the Cosmere who have been around for millennia, and some of them have helped shape the very societies and languages we are immersed in. 

And we have no idea what level of technology their culture was at prior to the Shattering of Adonalsium.

Even within the text of The Stormlight Archive, we have Wit/Hoid commenting on the word axehound, and how Roshar doesn’t have dogs or hounds, strongly implying that the source of this word comes from off-planet. Who is to say that the phrase “Just a second” didn’t make its way into Roshar’s lexicon through pre-shattering use?

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7 years ago

First, I want to address the lack of stormlight and the fact that Lift doesn’t need spheres. Since she’s the first to manifest this power is it because it will be needed because the everstorms will just peter out and stormlight will have to be produced another way? 

Also, I’ve been been re-reading Warbreaker between releases and there is a lot that seems to cross over. Someone else mentioned Zahel and of course there’s Nightblood. I realize there is some crossover between worlds but there just seemed to be more than normal with these two stories.

Most everything else has been covered by other readers. Shallan and Adolin are great and I do believe they’ll “make it” but something sinister is going to tear them apart. Shallan’s inability to be true to herself and continue to hide her issues behind her illusions will be her downfall and she’ll probably lose Pattern in the process.

The Parshendi are being splintered because Eshonai made the wrong choice.

Kaladin seems to be capable of healing the minds and psyche of others so maybe he’ll be a savior of the Parshendi?

 

 

 

 

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7 years ago

I don’t think Kaladin will save the Parshendis. I think he will find the limitations of his oaths as they imply he ought to protect everyone, as long as it is right. Therefore, when two parties are fighting, when two parties have grievances which are reasonable, which side is Kaladin supposed to take? In shorts, by getting to know the Parshendis more, he may become more sensitive to their issues, he may feel sympathy for them, but if they are doomed to be become Voidbringers, is it right for him to protect them?

I am thinking Kaladin will be forced to decide he can’t protect the Parshendis, he can’t protect both them and humanity. He’ll have to make a choice or fall into complete inactivity as whichever action he would take would against one group or another. He can’t fight for both sides, he has to pick one.

I don’t think Shallan will kill Pattern… I thought she was healing fine and if she needs her “other personality” to yield Pattern, I saw it as part of her healing process, not part of a regression. Regression would be to refuse to acknowledge Pattern Blade. I also think many readers make a too big deal with Brigthness Radiant: it was still Shallan. It wasn’t another person, it was her, just her into the mind frame she needed to be to work with her Pattern Blade. I honestly didn’t think much of it. Sometimes a disguise helps us break the ice: Shallan made one for herself, but she remained… Shallan.

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iZarcon
7 years ago

@82 @85 i wonder if the 9 has anything to do with the 9 shadows =/

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7 years ago

@295: Yes, I agree (Shallans plate). As I said in @79!

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Mosey121
7 years ago

With the whole Kaladin/Shallan or Adolin/Shallan argument, has anyone stopped to consider that Shallan has yet to discover that Kaladin killed Helaran, not Amaram? 

Adolin killed Sadeas? Not a big deal.

Kaladin killed Helaran, Shallan’s eldest brother, her protector and the man who helped learn to use drawing as a coping mechanism, the man who saved her? Pretty sure Shallan will NOT love Kaladin for it.

I seriously doubt that Brandon would make her leave Adolin for killing Sadeas, but hook up with Kaladin (and stay with him) despite this.

And yes, Kaladin will tell her eventually. He feels guilty about it causing her pain.

Scath
Scath
7 years ago

288. I feel you have taken my post out of context and out of tone so I have posted it again for reference below:

I recall in previous threads you stating that because Syl didn’t like Adolin, then that absolutely guaranteed that only Kaladin and Shallan will work out. That Adolin becoming a highprince means his relationship with Shallan absolutely positively can only go no where. That also in another thread another poster commented about how Shallan thought about Kaladin flying her around would allow her a better view of Urithiru would be very similar to “a whole new world” with Jasmine and Alladin. So Shallan has thought of Kaladin in oathbringer which is counter to your point that she has had no thoughts of him at all. I also think considering how extreme your opinion of this book has jumped back and forth based on one chapter each is rather reductionist to say that your latest stance is the only stance that makes sense. We have only read a few chapters in a very large book which is one book in a 10 book long series. People see different things in the content. I think it is a bit extreme to state you feel your interpretation is the only way it can go. 

As per the dictionary reductionism means: “the theory that every complex phenomenon, especially in biology or psychology, can be explained by analyzing the simplest, most basic physical mechanisms that are in operation during the phenomenom”.  No where in there does it say I was offended, that I thought your arguments were garbage, or readily dismissed. I was stating that with the comparatively little information we have, to go from one week stating there is only one way of interpreting the story, to just another week that the complete opposite is the only way to interpret the story I feel is reducing a 10 book narrative. Other people have brought forth their interpretations, and regardless the amount of credence you give Shallan bringing up Kaladin in Oathbringer, the fact remains she did. You can consider it as strong and as weak as you wish, but it is not the only interpretation to be had for it. Again, I have reposted my post above for reference. I have reread it twice and I do not see the language “forceful” nor “offending” anywhere in there. I thought I was being very respectful and polite, well within the moderator’s guidelines.

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Cadence
7 years ago

@310 Mosey121

The truth about Kaladin killing Helaran is already on the verge of surfacing. If Amaram hadn’t disappeared, and Dalinar proceeded with charges against him, the truth of how Amaram got his blade would have come out already. Its a giant land-mine just waiting for someone to put a little pressure on it. When it does finally explode, it will probably be enough to destroy Shallan’s already cracked psyche. 

 

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Pink Freud
7 years ago

I think there is some overemphasizing the potential for Adolin and Shallan to mess up the relationship. Certainly, Sanderson seems to be playing heavily with that theme in these chapters. That said, I think in retrospect it would seem pretty disappointingly obvious if he goes that route. 

Personally, I hope he’s just playing around with that uncertainty and instead continues this rather touchingly naive and awkward love story to a deeper maturity. Shallan is one who I think could handle Adolin’s killing of Sadeas, which could also be an opportunity for healing for her own story. To have each of them struggling with a past history of broken relationships makes their added assertions that they “aren’t going to mess this one up” logical, and many of us have probably had similar thoughts leading into a long-term, healthy relationship.

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7 years ago

@307 Gepeto. Regarding this comment from your post:

In shorts, by getting to know the Parshendis more, he may become more sensitive to their issues, he may feel sympathy for them, but if they are doomed to be become Voidbringers, is it right for him to protect them?

What if all parshmen are not doomed to become voidbringers? Perhaps some of them will get regular spren and become normal Parshendi/Listeners. I can see some humans wanting to kill them anyway, because they could potentially become voidbringers. However, from what we’ve seen of them they are the peaceful indigenous people of Roshar (aside from Warform, which they took because the Alethi attacked them on the Shattered Plains), and they have been enslaved by humans for generations. In this case I can see Kaladin becoming an advocate for them. Not only are they not evil, but they may be able to help the humans fight against the real voidbringers. I hope someone takes the time to figure out the mechanism by which they are transformed so that there is no mass genocide of their entire species. I think Kaladin will play a big part in this.

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grendelkat
7 years ago

Am I the only one who feels a bit punked by these chapters and some earlier ones?  The modern diction (Shallan saying “I got this”) doesn’t read like Roshar or Brandon’s writing… It’s definitely something “kids these days” say (see 1,000 texts from my 16-year old daughter), but on Roshar?  It took me out of the world, which seems like a rookie mistake Brandon wouldn’t make.  Here’s a new conspiracy theory…. Brandon is using assistants/collaborators a la Goodkind or Dumas for these preview chapters, but they’re going to be different at publication.  I know, probably crazy, but the Shallan chapters and some of the Kaladin chapters are reading more like fanfic to me… though “No Mating!” is all Brandon.  =)

The parshmen Kaladin found were also super reminiscent of a Koloss camp to me.  The dull boredom, with the threat of sudden violence.  It felt a little recycled, which made me sad but was another reason I don’t feel like these chapters were full Brandon.

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7 years ago

@@@@@315. grendelkat 

 

It has been explicitly stated a few times now that these chapters are exactly as they will appear content and orderwise in Oathbringer (aside from any typos from converting to a web document).  

Also Shallan is only 17 or 18 (can’t remember exactly) and while she has many areas that she is more mature in, she has also suppressed much of her personality for years and has other areas where she behaves much younger than someone her actual age/position should.  Could easily explain why she uses some “immature” idoms.

 

 

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Firemyst
7 years ago

I’ve been thinking about those Parshmen.    I’ve wondered since the storm began whether the Parshmen who are indoors during the Everstorm will change.   And when a friend asked Brandon about that he said Intent was also involved.  To me these we see in this chapter are without song, not able to attune to the rhythms.  It’s usually commented that Parshendi speak in kind of a sing song and these guys don’t.  I think we’re seeing an incomplete change possibly due to being indoors and without Intent to change.  Now, I don’t think that all the Parshendi will change to the red eyed form.  Those are Stormform.  In the Listener songs there are other forms of power mentioned.  Nightform, Smokeform, etc.  But, again, these that we see I don’t think have a spren yet.  

 

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taisharandor
7 years ago

@@@@@302. Artemis

So glad it’s not just me, because I thought I was going crazy… I don’t do audible books, so it definitely was not the voice, I can assure you. I also have not read WoT since the last book came out forever and a day ago… As for Egwene not being likable, neither is Shallan, to me at least, but that is very subjective. 

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Jesslaur75@305

Regarding the similarities between Warbreaker and The Stormlight Archive

I think it goes beyond even the character crossovers. The way Investiture works, with Breathing things in and out, is more similar than other Cosmere worlds. There’s the Returned being Cognitive Shadows, and the Heralds may be Cognitive Shadows as well. There’s the weird hair color thing on Roshar, which has echoes of the Royal Locks in it from Warbreaker. There are other littler connections as well.

The question is, are these interconnections intentional and plot oriented? Is there an in-world connection between Roshar and Nalthis? Or is the connection more meta? My understanding is that Zahel was an original character in Way of Kings Prime, and Brandon lifted him to use while developing Warbreaker. It may be that much of the worldbuilding for Warbreaker involved lifting and adapting ideas from that novel. After reading his unpublished Aether of Night, I can certainly see where he lifted ideas from that novel and inserted them elsewhere around the Cosmere. But posting exmples of that would violate the spoiler policy on that thread, since Aether of Night is unpublished, and shall remain that way.

Maybe this was the same process, and there is no in-universe larger connection between Roshar and Nalthis. Then again, maybe there is!

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

Mosey121 @310  and
Cadence @312

Strangely enough, last night as I was listening to WoR again, I came to the part where Shallan infiltrates Amaram’s manor house, and at some point amid all the different faces she wears during those specific scenes the character of Veil speaks to Amaram about Shallan wanting to know the history of all of the shardblades and his has not been recorded.  

‘Slipping back into the messenger disguise, Veil is in the right place for Amaram to find her. She delivers her message about “her mistress” (Shallan) wanting to document Amaram’s Plate and Blade … and she discovers that his Blade is the one once held by her beloved brother, Helaran. Amaram’s blithe description of the “assassin” and his own “counterattack”, which killed the young man, is all too sickeningly vivid. All her accomplishments of the night are thus buried in the sorrow of knowing that her brother is truly dead’.
Source: http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Veil#cite_note-Rworc52-1

I too believe that this will be an explosive situation and am curious to see how Brandon will resolve this intertwined issue of Amaram/Kaladin and Helaran’s death.  I see Kaladin telling her as well.  It seemed to me from how the scene is written above that Amaram’s offhand callous description of how he killed Helaran to be something that might come back to bite Amaram when he least expects it.  It could get really sticky.  I know how I would play it, but I am not writing the books.  
I have to wonder where Amaram is right now…

I don’t think Shallan will melt down emotionally once she finds out that Kaladin is the one who killed Helaran.  I hope not.  Too early in the books to really say, at this point, but all the suppositions are so much fun!  

Comment updated at 1:48 pm
Gepeto @307

I hope Kaladin does save them, because this group of people seem to have been persona non grata from the beginning of the books.  They need to be saved, in fact in my opinion, deserve to be saved. Being more poor, not as intelligent, nor as talented as others does not give anyone the right to treat them like they are cattle, and take advantage of them. 
Seems to me the powerful arrogant people of Roshar have done something that came around and bit them in the rear end and now no one appears to know just what the parshmen/parshendi are truly capable of.  I realize that there is much that will be revealed along the way, but I have a soft spot for people who have been mistreated and abused, same with animals too. :)

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Matt
7 years ago

@303 Isilel – Just a sec vs Just a moment.

To me, the first version sounds much less formal so to me it makes sense from a “translation” point of view. Shallan was saying it in a carefree manner, so it goes to “just a sec” and that works for me. I can see why you might feel differently, but I imagine no matter what BS wrote it would end up rubbing someone the wrong way.

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7 years ago

Stormlight is the most Cosmere central series to date. Spren are shattered fragments of Honor. Looks a lot like Seons from Sel (Elantris). Mraize’s trophy room has a number of suspicious items and his babsk is a worldhopper from the cold side of Scadrial (Mistborn). Roshar is a place with a great deal of connectivity.

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7 years ago

@311: When you state someone’s argumentation is reductionist on the basis it has changed from one week to the next, you are making a pejorative statement against this individual’s argumentation. I understand you felt you weren’t being pejorative, but the way you phrased it can be interpreted so. Sometimes it isn’t the language itself which comes across as harsh, but the statements.

You also make a great deal out of my opinion having changed as if it were a bad thing or an indication towards the quality of my argumentation or worst, its validity. Why mention it? How is it relevant to the points you are trying to raise? From my perspective, the only reason why someone would use this tactic is to discriminate the argumentation, to dismiss it. To say it isn’t valid. It wasn’t the message you were trying to write, then why mention it?

Also, when you say this:

to go from one week stating there is only one way of interpreting the story, to just another week that the complete opposite is the only way to interpret the story I feel is reducing a 10 book narrative

I am sorry but I am not reading it in a greatly positive way. You are nearly saying it (my opinion) shouldn’t exist because you find it too decisive and too forceful. I also really do not understand why you keep referring to it being a 10 book narrative: I can only evaluate the series based on what I have read. I made it quite clear on several instances things could change in the future, but I can only speak of the present and the past. So again, what was your purpose?

If you have a counter-argument to offer, then you can offer it without attacking how a poster chose to phrase his thoughts unless they were phrased with the obvious intend of being aggressive. You weren’t countering my opinion within your post, but my thinking process and this is where you crossed the line, perhaps unintentionally.

As I have said, I do not consider there are sufficient arguments to state Shallan has romantic feelings towards Kaladin. I never said other readers were not allowed to read them within the “Mr Grumpyface” statement, but my current position is to disagree with this interpretation. I never said other people cannot have alternate interpretations, but I currently disagree they are rightful. If future chapters prove me wrong, then I will bow down and admit I read it wrong.

There is nothing wrong in posters having an opinion, an interpretation and disagreeing with others. We can’t ALL agree on ALL interpretations and the fact we disagree is what creates discussion.

I honestly do not know what your purpose was with your post. Was it for me to stop posting my thoughts? You wouldn’t be the first. Was it for me to start agreeing with every single interpretation even the ones I find completely far-fetched? I will remind everyone others have vehemently disagreed with my own far-fetched theories.

You honestly baffled me: what was your purpose? If it merely was to mentioned the “Mr Grumpyface” statement as a counter argument, then why did you add all of this commentary against my commentary?

@314: You have a point though I do think Kaladin’s story arc looks like he is going to weight down his alliances. Maybe we are going to get more insights as to how Windrunners chose whom they will protect. Right now, Kaladin pledged himself to the Kholins, but what if this becomes the “wrong” option? I see a lot of potential for conflicts over his honor within the upcoming Kaladin story arc.

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Kalaxin
7 years ago

I don’t wish to provoke a further argument on Shallan-Adolin vs. Shallan-Kaladin.  We can only speculate at this point, and such speculation tends to lead to somewhat heated argumentation.  I only wish to make some observations about intimate relationships.  Such bonding will suffer if either or both keep important secrets from each other.  At this point, Shallan can’t tell Adolin that she has killed her parents for fear that such revelation would sour or ruin their relationship.  Adolin, in turn, can’t reveal his killing of Sadeas – for the same reason.  Perhaps this impasse will resolve itself when circumstances change.

In contrast, Shallan can tell Kaladin about her killing of her mother in self-defense given that she has already told him about killing her father to save her brother.  That revelation only produced a feeling of wonder in Kaladin rather than unspoken disdain.  Her emotional well-being requires that she reveal her darkest secret to someone, and to give vent to her deeply felt emotion about that act and what led to it.  She can cry on Kaladin’s shoulder and get his warm approval.  He, in turn, will reveal that he was the one – not Amaram, who killed her brother in self-defense and to save his commander.  He will express true remorse of his act considering how he and his men were treated by Amaram in payment.  Such a scene need not imply a romantic relationhip – just a very close one. 

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7 years ago

I think we can guess everyone’s secrets will be revealed but will it be one at a time or all at once with Dalinar left to sort the bodies.

I’m guessing both Shallan and Kaladin would defend Adolin for killing Sadeas.  Everyone will freak over Shallan having killed her parents. Shallan will feel devastated that Kaladin killed her brother. Then, before any of them can recover, they are forced to fight some Voidbringers who attack trying to get back the awakened Parshmen that Kaladin brought back.

How’s that for a theory?

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7 years ago

Re: use of “Just a sec”

I think that using seconds to keep track of time has been fairly commonplace in the Stormlight Archive.  In addition to all of the other examples above, remember that Sigzil and Lopen were able to track time while Kaladin was testing his powers in the cavern in WoR (Chapter 12).  Rock and Kaladin didn’t seem shocked at this ability, so it seems that using “seconds” as a measuring device is fairly common, among Althethi (light and dark eyes), Herdazians, Horneaters and Azish. 

In addition, Lift uses the term “seconds” (Lift Interlude), Shallan again speaks and thinks in those terms (Chapter 49 and Chapter 73) and Nalan tells Szeth that if he “had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late.” (Chapter 88).  So we can expand the list to the Reshi (although Lift could have picked that up anywhere), the Heralds and the Shin, all familiar with using seconds as a term of measurement.  So it would be a safe assumption that “second” or “seconds” is a measure of time used commonly throughout Roshar.  From there, it makes sense that idioms or expressions linked to “seconds” would crop up in everyday speech.  So personally, I don’t find it unusual at all that Shallan would use the term “Just a sec” casually.

Re: epigraphs

I like @293’s use of the gambling term, “Jasnah vs the field” in terms of potential authorship.  I am curious why Jasnah is still the popular choice, myself.  Since the epigraphs are of the preface of Oathbringer, they must be written by the author of the actual book itself.  The epigraphs from Chapter 14 & 15 seem like the author is discussing themselves as the focus of the book, not someone else.  So it seems more likely that the author is Oathbringer or Oathbringer’s wielder (either directly or by having someone transcribe their words) then it is of someone (like Jasnah) writing about someone else (like their uncle, or whomever is currently wielding his former sword).  I do feel that we still lack sufficient information to make any type of definitive statements about who the author is, though.

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7 years ago

@325

Top theory and not too farfetched either. There are some elements in it that have a high probability of appearing in the main book, I think.

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7 years ago

“Just a sec.”

Lirin has a fabrial clock. TWoK

Scath
Scath
7 years ago

@323 gepeto I feel you have taken my words out of context, and placed words in my mouth repeatedly. I have stated how I felt and explained it calmly and reasonably. You have accused me twice now of violating the moderation policies on this site, and it is starting to feel like you are violating them as this is starting to sound like a personal attack on me and not what I have said. I do not want this to get any more heated as it seems to have already become so and detract from this thread so I ask a moderator please become involved so this can be resolved in a calm and reasonable manner. Thank you. 

BMcGovern
Admin
7 years ago

Agreed, @329. At this point, it seems like the best course might be to agree to disagree and disengage, moving on to other topics of discussion. There seems to be a failure of communication or interpretation, or a misreading of previous comments, and rather than get bogged down any further, let’s move on now for the sake of the larger discussion. Thanks.

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7 years ago

Random thought/Looney theory re: the strata that are constantly being mentioned in Urithuru: 

Brandon keeps on mentioning them so much, I wouldn’t be surprised if they served some type of purpose.  So, what if they help channel/carry Stormlight all through the structure? Like thin lines of gem chips or ground crystals that hold stormlight? Dalinar already noticed that there are baskets/cages that can be dropped into a Highstorm to collect Stormlight.  What if there is some type of link or connection from those cages to the strata, that then channel/conduct the Stormlight throughout the Tower via the strata patterns?  Thus, providing substantial power to the Tower and its inhabitants.   And to go even more crazy…

 

Looney Theory projected out even further to Ludicrous Theory levels:

Building off of the strata being ground gem crystals arranged in a pattern formation, what if the different colored strata are the gem crystals associated with each order?  What if the strata used to designate where each order would commonly gather, interact, live, etc?  So, the times where multiple colors of strata are visible, that’s where multiple Orders would commonly frequent, gather, live, etc.  Like the bath chamber that Shallan noticed in Chapter 9 with oranges, reds and browns could be where the Dustrbingers, Lightweavers, Stonewards and/or Bondsmiths (maybe the orange and brown she saw were more gold and amber) would possibly frequent?  There are definitely some issues with this theory (therefore the “ludicrous” designation), but the possibility is there…

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7 years ago

@323 Gepeto. I’m not sure that Kaladin will remain the Captain of the Kholin bodyguard going forward. I imagine his primary duty will be to fulfill his oaths as a Windrunner, to protect those who cannot protect themselves. It is a desolation so the radiants need to fulfill their radiant oaths, not their former societal roles. 
 
As for how he fulfills his Windrunner duty, I don’t think there is a distinction on which species he protects, so long as they are innocents and not of Odium. I think Dalinar and the other KR would agree. The upcoming war is not humanity verses parshmen/parshendi, it is all beings of Roshar vs. voidbringers/agents of Odium. Just as humans can be influenced by Odium, so can Perhmen be transformed into voidbringers.  It doesn’t make all humans or parshmen evil.
 
I think one job of the radiants will be to learn how to discern the difference between the good guys and bad guys, and try to prevent the transformation. It is possible different radiants might disagree on how to accomplish this, but I don’t think Kaladin will be breaking any oaths by protecting innocent lives who are not harming anyone. Even if he is still the captain of the Kholin guard, I doubt these gentle parshmen will be any threat to the Kholins, so I don’t think protecting them will cause a conflict in Kaladin’s duties.

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7 years ago

Add my name to the list of software engineers who love Dividing By Zero. How very inappropriate. 

Also, Isilel@303 mentioned a Herald helping Taravangian. I think this is a good theory… otherwise, how did T know so much regarding Heralds and the Knights Radiant? His peculiar condition gave him a day of off the charts brilliance, but genius is not knowledge. He has to have some external source of information to know the secret of what destroyed the Radiants.

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7 years ago

Off Topic @@@@@ many – May I take this opportunity to urge y’all to consider registering an account here, if you haven’t already? There are several reasons from a user standpoint. One, if you’re logged in, you can edit your posts if you realize there’s a typo or you just want to clarify something. Two, you can easily keep track of past threads you’ve participated in through your Conversations list. Three, you don’t have to do that annoying captcha thing every time. Four, you have a message box where you can carry on a private conversation with someone if you wish, without becoming facebook friends or exchanging email addresses. It’s free, you don’t have to give any information beyond a valid email address (which you already have to do), and you can choose to stay logged in, or log out every time. 

(I assume there may be some advantages to Tor as well, but I have no idea what they are…)

On an unrelated subject, but worth remembering:

If you think at all, you think you’re right. It’s inherent in the process.

I always think I’m right — but that doesn’t mean I think I’m always right.

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7 years ago

@336

Whelp. I’ve been convinced.

On another note, I love that last bit! It’s an important thing for us to keep in mind as ideas and beliefs are shared- it’s only natural for us to agree with our thoughts,  but that doesn’t mean we should be closed to everyone else’s. 

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Zaphy
7 years ago

Brandon, you’re making me love Shallan and Adolin together too much and their inevitable breakup is going to rip my heart into pieces.

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7 years ago

I don’t think the strata are anything significant. They are just geological formations that Shallan notices because of her interest in natural history and art while others who don’t share that interest ignore them.

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John
7 years ago

I like how Shallan is practicing with Stormlight and working on her illusions. It seems like after she speaks more truths she’ll be able to make an illusion without having to draw? It feels like the first chapter was a little forced, I understand it’s a bit of background on Viel but it feels a little predictable or perhaps conforming to what other authors are doing. The part where she refers to herself as “Radiant” doesn’t have a good feeling to it. In my opinion I liked Book 1 and 2 Shallan better than what we’re seeing here. 

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7 years ago

Talking about modern expressions that throw you out of the story, how about this one, from chapter 13 above:

“Is there anyone who actually is? I mean, is there really someone out there who looks at relationships and thinks, ‘You know what, I’ve got this’? Personally, I rather think we’re all collectively idiots about it.”

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Greenedera
7 years ago

DIVIDING PER ZERO

I burst to laughing helplessly. So a fitting sentence, from a fractal-living-creature. Inappropriate! Dividing per zero!  In a fantasy novel!

 

I agree, a sex course from Syl and Pattern would be great.

vickyng11
7 years ago

1 – Shallan dan Kal?  I really do not think so, they may approach or even feel very attracted to each other but they are not a couple, the Radiant job being to important to mess with it adding another Radiant in love. 2 – I fear that releasing so many chaptrs beforehand just diminishes the VALUE of those same chapters, as if you can write them as short or irrelevant as you wish bcoz they are to be free anyway, the real stuff is much deeper in the book itself. 3 – WHERE do the shardplate come frooommmmm???  I am getting crazy about it. Thank you people I love to have a place to discuss these subjets.

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 343 – Vickyng11 – Believe it or not, if you go to Amazon, many big name authors give the first few chapters of a new book as a FREE DOWNLOAD, Among the big names I have downloaded freebie chapters are Dan Brown, John Grisham and Dean Koontz. It is a well known business practice. It actually creates buzz for the book. They even do it in Audible.

Anyway, I commented on this because you said 

2 – I fear that releasing so many chaptrs beforehand just diminishes the VALUE of those same chapters, as if you can write them as short or irrelevant as you wish bcoz they are to be free anyway, the real stuff is much deeper in the book itself. 

Without writing a whole wall of text to explain,  I believe that these chapters are very important and very relevant. :-)  Cheers!!!

 

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7 years ago

@343, 344 Baen offers whole books for free, often the first few books in a series. 

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7 years ago

@343 – The decision on what to release here came long, long after the entire book was written. If you continue reading, I think you’ll find Part 1 extremely relevant to the rest of the book.

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7 years ago

@346 wetlandernw can you at least reveal if the secret of shardplate is explored in this book? Not asking for specifics, just a yes or no answer please

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7 years ago

trimerion @347 – RAFO. That’s all I can say. Sorry…

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7 years ago

For the new people here you probably have to explain that RAFO means read and find out.

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7 years ago

@348 wetlandernw, 😝 dammit no fair lol, oh well, guess I was kinda half expecting that answer anyway 😝

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7 years ago

 @@@@@333 rccampbe – completely agree that genius is not knowledge. T’s Diagram has to be based on deep knowledge, and the fact that T was king of Kharbranth, which is the biggest library in Roshar, is supportive of that. I feel that there has been too much discussion as to who wrote OB, but not much as to why it was important. Way of Kings was the book that was pushing Gavilar and Dalinar towards becoming KR, and WoR was the book that taught Shallan about KRs and their history and organisation, potentially impacting the design of the new structure in Urithiru. I think that Oathbringer is the book where T learned the secret of what broke the Knights Radiant (‘Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return’ – the Diagram) and will become a major twist at some point.

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7 years ago

Trimerion @350 – yeah, I know. But it’s part of the deal – even saying that something will/won’t be addressed is a spoiler of sorts. :(

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7 years ago

Completely random side note:  I love how many people in this forum are software developers…I guess it makes sense that a lot of fantasy nerds are computer nerds too.

I will leave you all with this terrible joke.

A SQL query goes into a bar, walks up to two tables and asks, “Can I join you?”

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7 years ago

@353 I don’t really understand the joke but I’m going to assume it’s awful (-.-)

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7 years ago

@353. Love it :)

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7 years ago

@354 It is pretty awful.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who understand binary, those who don’t.

#pleasestopme

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7 years ago

@353 so bad…

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7 years ago

@357 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ guess I’m losing my mind waiting for the new chapters.

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7 years ago

@353 jpoet1291 – LOL 

Now, do something about stored procs LOL Or is that no longer in style. It’s been a while for me. :-)

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7 years ago

Watch it, all of you Devos. We in QA are testing those jokes right now.

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7 years ago

Please don’t ban me for by bad off-topic humor.

A QA Tester walks into a bar:

He orders a beer.
He orders 3 beers.
He orders 2976412836 beers.
He orders 0 beers.
He orders -1 beer.
He orders q beers.
He orders nothing.
Él ordena una cerveza.
He orders a deer.
He tries to leave without paying.
He starts ordering a beer, then throws himself through the window half way through.
He orders a beer, gets his receipt, then tries to go back.
He orders a beer, goes to the door of the bar, throws a handful of cookies into the street, then goes back to the bar to see if the barmaid still recognises him.
He orders a beer, and watches very carefully while the barmaid puts his order into the till to make sure nothing in his request got lost along the way.
He starts ordering a beer, and tries to talk the barmaid into handing over her personal details.
He orders a beer, sneaks into the back, turns off the power to the till, and waits to see how the barmaid reacts, and what she says to him.
He orders a beer while calling in thousands of robots to order a beer at exactly the same time.

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7 years ago

@361 He watches in dismay as after 3,000,000 customers order 1,000 beers each, 100 complain that they got wine instead.

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Meerletalis
7 years ago

@361 He orders 1000 beers and checks to see if they are the same exact height in the glass.  Then he divides the total order by zero and runs out screaming, “No mating!”

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7 years ago

There are three types of people in the world: Those who can count, and those who can’t.

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7 years ago

@363 OMG that is more hilarious than it should be. Way to bring it back on topic.

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7 years ago

Sorry to comment so late but I have been thinking about the links
between Lightweaving and Soulstamping.  Soul casting is practically
permanent soul stamping.  I believe that soul casting is permanent
because it includes a cognitive change instead of a physical stamp.
Also, it requires spiritual power from stormlight which prevents the
transformation from degrading.  I think those are the main two
differences between the systems.

I also notice that some of Shallan’s work with different personalities
such as Veil and Brightness Radiant is like mini Essence Marks, changing her history and
thoughts while she takes on that persona.  This is what Shai can do in
Emperor’s Soul.

Both of these thoughts leads into my next thought on the “spiritual
sustenance” Lightweavers provide.  Especially with Bluth, Shallan
draws him as he could have been, another similarity to Soul Forgery.
It’s almost like a mini essence mark that allows him to choose to
become that version of himself if he wishes.  I imagine that the
spiritual sustenance is similar.  Lightweavers could encapsualte
spiritual attributes like courage, strength, or energy in their
drawing and let others draw on / become like them.  Magically, I think
Lightweaver are creating a Connection between an Identity and an
attribute, (likely an Identity of its own in the spiritual realm as
well), that lets people draw on that attribute to overcome hardship
and strengthen themselves.

I think this is Brandon exploring the transformative and inspiring
power of Art.  Illusions are usually deceptive and he is playing on
that here, especially with Pattern and telling lies to tell the truth.
What if the stories we tell about ourselves can become reality?  Since
Lightweaving has Illumination and Transformation, this order not only
transforms physical reality through soulcasting and illusions, it can
also transform through inspiration.  I suspect Truthwatchers with
Progression will combine healing with illumination, possible healing
mental diseases like the Mad Herald and helping people come to grips
with who they are instead of who they could be.

 

Also, enjoying the parshman change.  It makes sense.  The everstorm carries new spren that can bond with them but not every spren gives Odium control over them.  So far, the only spren we have seen that can control you have to be welcomed in.  Probably like Ruin, where Odium can influence you based on the degree of connection you have to him. Ruin could control Kolos with four spikes and inquisitors with more but not Kandra with two.  The spren are likely similar with the degree of connection to Odium varying.  Also, the songs the parshman sing could function similar to the Oaths where the voidspren gain more power and control over the host when they are welcomed in with the correct Words and Intention.

Thanks for reading my thoughts.

Vulcronos

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7 years ago

@366 very interesting thought you have n the nature of truth watchers and lightweaver. Personally I feel they will combine like you say but are also able  to do each one separately. We will see as the book progresses. However you have put forward a very well thought out theory. Nice work

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7 years ago

@366 I’ve been thinking very similar thoughts to those, well written!

I’m very interested in the opposite – do Shallan’s Truths, spoken as her Ideals, allow her to constantly modify her own personality and then shift back to her “true self” without damage?  Lots of people have expressed concern that Shallan is developing multiple personalities or alters, but I think that’s almost the point of Lightweaving.

Also, I really want to know if the Radiant names match to their unique abilities more than we might suspect.  For example, Shallan is a Lightweaver, which is about the transformation of people via illumination, right?  I’m almost certain that Renarin is going to use the Surge of Illumination differently, in an art called “Truthwatching” that no other order can do.

Similarly, I really want to know how Kaladin’s flight is different than a Skybreaker’s.  We haven’t seen something that we can really call “Windrunning”, since the Lashings match up to Adhesion/Gravitation, rather than a mixture of them.  

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7 years ago

 @366 vulcronos. The suggestion that Shallan combines Lightweaving and Soulcasting to ‘imprint’ a permanent change upon someone else or herself, in a way similar to Soulstamping/Forgery is very interesting.
 
But there are some worrying differences, especially the way Shallan uses it on herself. Soulstamping, as Shai does it, is based on a deep knowledge of yourself as a person. Shai has to know everything about an object or a person, before she can change it. Every change she made to a person or an object has to follow logically from a pre-existing basis. Shai becomes a different version of herself.

Shallan, in the meantime, does truly know who she is, or if she does, she doesn’t want to accept it. She hides even from herself, and her.. imprints, so to say, are done in a panic, to hide, to become someone else (even if the results end up in a mix of herself and the other, her intent is to be, well, not Shallan).

“Be away.     No. No, just be someone else.”

Interestingly, similarly to Soulstamping, where Shai theorizes that repeated application of the stamp might imprint the stamp onto the soul, Shallan is glad that projecting confidence (which normal people also do, but in Shallan it is probably augmented by her surgebinding) is helping her actually be more confident. At the same time Gaz and the others seem permanently changed by her.

Now, I’m curious whether this difference comes from the fact that Lightweavers project a sort of inspiring ‘end goal’, for which people can then strive (kind of like how Dalinar followed the codes for so long they became the natural thing for him to do), or from the fact that Shallan is using Lightweaving (at least on herself) in an unhealthy way. She hasn’t truly accepted her past, so she cannot heal and grow stronger from it. I’m very curious to see more of this in either case. 

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7 years ago

In WoT, the difference between Traveling and Skimming is that for one you need to know the starting point, for the other the destination. Soulstamping uses Connection with an original (starting point), while Lightweaving Cultivates growing towards a goal. (Is Connection the right shard for Soulstamping? I’m not really an expert on all the shards.)

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7 years ago

@370 Connection isn’t a Shard; all “magic” on Sel is powered by the Dor, an amalgamation of Domination and Devotion on the cognitive plane.

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

I just have to make an appearance this morning. I won’t be here when the chapters are delivered.  I have to go shopping!  I know, hard to believe a girl saying that, but dang!  I want my story fix and I have to wait!  Happy reading!

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7 years ago

@spiritwalker #372 

You cant wait 5 minutes for new chapters? What do you need thats so urgent?

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AZGreen
7 years ago

Where are the new chapters?

 

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aeteroniax
7 years ago

Disorganized throughts from last two weeks:

 

So… Adolin is a high prince now, due to Dalinar’s promotion. *Now* let’s see what happens when people figure out that he murdered Sadeas.

Dalinar may die. I’m pretty sure there’s a WOB somewhere that states that flashback characters don’t have to be alive for us to see the flashbacks. What if he said that because it happens here? It’s certainly set up to be possible what with T arriving and having the desire to kill him, plus we know that Brandon is willing to kill main characters…

What if T ends up as Odiums champion?

 

^ my comments from last chapter group, which I never posted

For these chapters:

Adolin didn’t mention highprincedom? Does this happen on the same night as Elhokar swears allegiance to Dalinar as highking?

@76 perhaps that’s the time at which he awakens his sword? (An assassination attempt against Adolin.)

 

It strikes me that the new Knights are, I believe, trying to hold up the oath pact without specifically knowing what it is.

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

trimerion @373.  I don’t get the chapters till 09:00 CDST and left at 08:00.  I have to go out of town to shop.  I live in a one horse town.  I am back now and getting ready to read right now,.

:)

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Alex
7 years ago

Just wondering if we’re meant to be pointing out and highlighting errors in the writing? I know there’s proof readers for this sort of thing but I’ve noticed glaring errors in a few chapters now. I’d hate for the book to go to print with them still there. Like in the chapter where Kaladin comes back into the story. The word “different” is missing an e on the second use in this paragraph.

 

They looked different from what he expected. For one thing, their skin was a diff rent shade—many parshmen here in Alethkar had marbled white and red skin, rather than the deep red on black like Rlain from Bridge Four. They didn’t wear warform, though

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Mahoka
7 years ago

This scene has a subtle hint deepening my belief in something I suspected earlier. Adolin is going to be Odium’s champion. And Renarin suspects it, if not outright knows it. The nine shadowed figure in shardplate. Renarin’s shocked reaction to that vision, and his staring at Adolin with unblinking eyes later on. His conversation alone with Adolin at the pasture, saying he’s afraid of messing things up – wrestling with whether to reveal what he knows. And now, we learn in passing that Adolin was born under the sign of the nine. Foreshadowing if I ever saw it.

InhumanByte
7 years ago

Is it just me, or are Veil and Vin getting a bit similar…. they wear trousers and a shirt, black hair, work with shady orginizations, names start with V…

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7 years ago

You could add Vivenna to that list, by the end of Warbreaker. At least, if you call Vasher “shady”… which most people tend to do. 

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longviewer
7 years ago

Wait until Adolin sees a Cryptic in Shadesmar form, she thought, with a full body but twisting shapes for his head.

I still await Elhokar’s promotion – didn’t he mutter once about those symbol-heads appearing to him? Was that when he was drunk before assassination attempt?

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7 years ago

@379,  InhumanByte:

Is it just me, or are Veil and Vin getting a bit similar…. they wear trousers and a shirt, black hair, work with shady orginizations, names start with V

I think if you’re going to be an “action heroine” there are going to be similarities. Vin’s and Shallan/Veil’s actual backgrounds and personalities are really, really different.

In a comment here, I half-jokingly suggested that Kaladin is Kelsier reborn–after all, they’re both lower-class heroes who have a near-irrational but not-unjustified hatred of a hereditary upper class, whose status depends on a time when their ancestors had supernatural powers. Both K&K are masters of spear-fighting. (Kelsier impaled the Lord Ruler.) Both have a fighting style involving flying around. Clearly they’re the same person.

There is a WoB that Kelsier has already returned, although it’s implied that this was on the Southern Continent of Scadrial.

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J Dixon
7 years ago

“It’s because you hate me,” Pattern said softly. “I can die, Shallan. I can go. They will send you another to bond.”

 

hope this isn’t foreshadowing :(

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Starrisa
7 years ago

I hope Shallan doesn’t like go crazy or anything :”( And that nothing bad happens to Pattern, because it’ll be </3 And argh!!! Stop it please, I can already guess that Kaladin and Shallan will most likely end up together (I’ll happy with that too as I liked Kaladin but) BUT poor Adolin!!! Now I ship Shallan and Adolin and I ship Shallan and Kaladin too?!?! 

Can they end up as some sort of threesome xD

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